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i don't know you know uh you'll probably

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be about as good as i was

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that's kind of the way it works you know

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and i i was below average

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you know so so you'll probably

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ultimately rank

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somewhere around there you know i don't

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want you out here shooting this ball

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around all day and night all right

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all right glare hey

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[Music]

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period that's will smith from the

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pursuit of happiness boy

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i love that movie and as far as how it

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fits how it connects with today's

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very long but i think insightful in so

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many ways

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interview with dr jeffrey martin well

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i i think that's kind of an easter egg

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we're all gonna have to kind of find

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that and figure out if there is that

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connection or not though

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but at least i think there is so see

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what you think

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all right here's a clip from the

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interview and i picked one from this is

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such a long interview i pick one from

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almost the end

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so maybe you get an idea that there's a

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reason to stick around

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to the end and so dean and i were

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talking about is he was doing like

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chocolate intention experiments or

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something at that time and he like gave

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me this piece of chocolate that was

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infused with the intention of love or

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something and

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you know he gives me the chocolate and

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asking if i feel any different and you

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know stuff like that

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and i love chocolate so i was just

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grateful for the chocolate i was hungry

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but

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ions took a while to get to longer than

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i thought it would take to drive

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and i was like well before she leaves

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let's look at her data

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you know and so we go to the other room

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and it's got like these bar graphs sort

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of on the screen

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so it's walking her through the trial

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and he's like what did you do on this

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one do you remember what you did on this

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one did you remember what you did on

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this one so on and so forth

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and all of them were like i don't know

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kind of middle of the road bars and then

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there was this one bar that was like

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kind of off the charts

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he gets to that when he's like do you

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remember what you did with this one and

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she just sort of looked at him

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and then she sort of looked over at me

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and the other person from our lab that

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was

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visiting with me um and you could tell

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that she didn't want to say

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you know and so she tried to give like

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some sort of half-assed

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sort of response to it um and i'm like

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well

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i'm not gonna you know settle for that

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like you know you were really precise on

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the other ones like you know what did

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you do on this one and she's like it

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says she thinks that she pauses for a

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while

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and she looks at us some more and she

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there's this thing i can do

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where i can kind of make myself go away

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you know she describes like basically

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being able to put herself into this

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temporary non-symbolic experience

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um and she's like that's what i was

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doing when i did that bar

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um i thought i thought that's very

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interesting

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex sacaris

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and today

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we welcome back dr jeffrey martin to

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skeptico

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in case you don't remember dr martin is

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a harvard trained

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social scientist author of the book the

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finders

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which as we mentioned in the previous

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interview has been

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widely widely praised by tons of very

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prominent well-respected names in

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psychology neuroscience and just

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i don't know thinking people in general

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jeffrey and his team are also the

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creators of the finders

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course which is a rather intensive

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16 week although we're going to have to

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talk about that because there's kind of

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a new course coming out

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meditation and mind training course

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although that's kind of pigeonholing it

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maybe in a way that

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we wouldn't have to but it's a course

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that claims to do nothing

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less than permanently shift

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your sense of well-being probably about

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the biggest thing you could do in your

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life

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and as we explored in the last interview

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you know the thing about

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jeffrey is from the beginning

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he's been all about the science all

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about the numbers and by the best

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standards we have the gold standard type

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standards within

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psychology and the social sciences it's

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hard to argue that he hasn't

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really cracked the code here so it's an

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interesting

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body of work fascinating and we chatted

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a little bit before the interview and

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i'm going to plug that in at some point

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but

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let me just start with welcome you back

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dr martin thanks for coming back on

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skeptico

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so in the last interview we

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talked about a lot of stuff and i think

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there's a lot to kind of pick up on just

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from where we left off because there's a

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lot of things going on in

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your world and in the world in general

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that i think are

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self-development meditation

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training mind training but let's start

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with just some of the basics i i

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maybe did a very brief sketch of who you

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are

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remind people about who is

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jeffrey martin and in particular how you

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came about

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doing this developing this course and

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the book that that you wrote

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you know i'm someone who was in media

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and advertising and technology and

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built businesses in those types of

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spaces

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for many years i had a lot of success

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and at the end of all of that

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which was in my mid-30s i was not that

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happy

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obvious to me that there were people

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that were a lot happier

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than i was and um you know being a

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you know type a overachiever

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person at that point in my life i

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basically just

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quit everything that i was doing and

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went back to school

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and tried to figure out

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how i could have the happiness and

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fulfillment

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that as a type a person i felt i so

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rightly deserved

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and if i can let me add another part to

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this story because

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it's not hidden you shared it in an

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interview before

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but it's a very personal part that i

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think

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anyone without being an armchair

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psychologist would have to see

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factors into that and that's that during

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your upbringing you were exposed to some

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rather

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um i don't know intense religious

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kind of experiences televangelist

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experiences and you kind of saw

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some of the dark side of spiritual

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salesmanship but at the same time i'm

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sure you were exposed to

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the potential of this well-being change

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this

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uh awareness awakening kind of thing

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whether it comes through

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the televangelist on the screen or

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whether it comes through meditation

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so how did that had to be a factor

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just through your upbringing that were

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you do you think you were a seeker

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all along or a tainted seeker absolutely

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skeptical seeker if you will i was

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well at one point an enthusiastic seeker

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at another point a skeptical seeker

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a disillusion seeker you know i think i

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went through all the phases that so many

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people do

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i think everyone is a seeker you know

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that's in hindsight that's what makes

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advertising work

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right is that everybody's out there

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looking for something we all feel that

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sense of fundamental discontentment

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you know we've all got goals if you

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don't think you feel some sort of

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discontentment then ask yourself is

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there something you want and then ask

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yourself why is it that you want that

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right it's because there's some sort of

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discontentment

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there's a reason why we can make a ford

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truck

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you know and map that over into what's

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going to

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you know in your own imagination make

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you believe

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that it's going to dramatically change

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everything for your life if you could

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just get

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the 2020 ford truck or whatever right

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let's talk about that for a minute

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because this is like really basics but

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it's easy to kind of slip past this and

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i think it's almost

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it's so embedded in what you do that it

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deserves

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kind of pulling apart and that's the

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it's almost like you're talking to two

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different

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audiences you're talking to one audience

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which is just

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the the first life kind of people

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and i i have to kind of disagree with

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you there

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i know and i think most people who feel

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like they're a spiritual seeker

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on spiritual path one of the things that

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they'll tell you is it's frustrating

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that they encounter so many people who

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know

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that that for truck they are convinced

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that that is all that they need and when

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they get the ford truck

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and the experience which we all

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experience which is for the first week

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it's extremely exciting man and you show

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all your friends and you're driving

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and then about three weeks like man

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let's start feeling like a lot of my

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like like my last truck but where that

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leaves

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most people is they just substitute it

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for the next

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thing that they want the next

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distraction

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and then there's so that's one group of

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people and i think people who are

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seekers

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they go man wake up i mean at least feel

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the angst that i feel

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to in realizing that i'm on this wheel

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and then it seems like you're talking to

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this other group of people who are like

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man he's right when they when jeffrey

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says

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fundamental discontentment it just boom

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it hits you in my stomach it's like god

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no matter what i do

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i still have this fundamental

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discontentment i gotta somehow

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find a way beyond that and that's why i

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think

284
00:09:49,990 --> 00:09:49,279
your your course in your book is really

285
00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:50,000
talking to you

286
00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:51,600
do you want to speak to that uh you know

287
00:09:55,750 --> 00:09:53,680
because i think you know that's exactly

288
00:09:57,430 --> 00:09:55,760
right i think it's challenging to figure

289
00:10:00,870 --> 00:09:57,440
out how to reach

290
00:10:02,230 --> 00:10:00,880
uh people who are stuck so deeply in

291
00:10:05,030 --> 00:10:02,240
culture which frankly

292
00:10:07,110 --> 00:10:05,040
you know i had a role in creating for

293
00:10:09,670 --> 00:10:07,120
many years early in my life

294
00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:09,680
um getting people on that treadmill

295
00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:10,480
keeping people

296
00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:11,920
on that treadmill keeping them

297
00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:14,079
distracted you know getting them to

298
00:10:17,509 --> 00:10:15,360
think listen it's

299
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:17,519
your relationship it's that you need

300
00:10:21,190 --> 00:10:18,880
this education

301
00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:21,200
it's that you need this next house or a

302
00:10:24,870 --> 00:10:22,000
car or

303
00:10:25,910 --> 00:10:24,880
if you only had this watch or you know

304
00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:25,920
whatever else

305
00:10:32,870 --> 00:10:29,760
and culture is so effective

306
00:10:36,470 --> 00:10:32,880
at you know basically

307
00:10:40,470 --> 00:10:36,480
keeping people distracted by that

308
00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:40,480
that you know they don't have a chance

309
00:10:44,150 --> 00:10:43,040
to oftentimes ask the deeper questions

310
00:10:46,310 --> 00:10:44,160
and so

311
00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:46,320
absolutely you know that's a that's been

312
00:10:51,030 --> 00:10:47,760
a big challenge and a big

313
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:51,040
i'd say frustration since i've been in

314
00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:52,880
this line of work the advertising line

315
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:55,360
of work turned out to be incredibly easy

316
00:10:58,630 --> 00:10:57,920
you know compared to this line of work

317
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:58,640
because it had

318
00:11:03,269 --> 00:11:01,600
all of culture behind it and going for

319
00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:03,279
it right and this is going completely

320
00:11:05,670 --> 00:11:03,760
against

321
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:05,680
all of that it's interesting although

322
00:11:09,910 --> 00:11:07,920
it's funny i was at uh this event called

323
00:11:11,829 --> 00:11:09,920
stream asia many years ago now

324
00:11:13,269 --> 00:11:11,839
maybe in 2010 or something and stream

325
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:13,279
asia was um

326
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:15,120
the guy who built uh the one of the

327
00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:16,079
world's largest advertising

328
00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:18,160
conglomerates wpp

329
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:21,600
um named marty sorrell and

330
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:24,399
sir martin sorrell and um he had this

331
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:26,079
thing where he would basically

332
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:29,440
take people a hundred people once or

333
00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:30,240
twice a year

334
00:11:35,190 --> 00:11:33,360
to some exotic location and basically

335
00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:35,200
put them in a pot and stir

336
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:38,000
right and so i went there and i was in

337
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:39,839
the middle of this research

338
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:42,000
got invited you know more because of

339
00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:43,920
what i was doing before obviously

340
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:46,000
than this particular research right but

341
00:11:49,190 --> 00:11:47,600
as as somebody who went

342
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,200
you more or less everybody more or less

343
00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:51,360
had to give some presentation right

344
00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:53,440
and so i gave a presentation on what i

345
00:11:57,350 --> 00:11:55,120
was working on

346
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:57,360
which was sort of the opposite of what

347
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:58,480
everybody else

348
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:01,120
was working on at this event right and

349
00:12:04,150 --> 00:12:02,480
you had you know it's like that

350
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:04,160
this one was in thailand and so it had

351
00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:05,920
like all the people who ran the top

352
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:07,920
the googles of china and the facebooks

353
00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:09,440
of china and all of that in addition to

354
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:11,120
all the ad people and all that

355
00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:14,320
um and afterwards you know marty came up

356
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:15,600
with like his

357
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:17,519
main lieutenant which was an r d guy the

358
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:19,200
main r d guy and stuff and

359
00:12:25,509 --> 00:12:22,320
he was like a little concerned

360
00:12:26,150 --> 00:12:25,519
about you know what i might be on to or

361
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,160
up to

362
00:12:30,389 --> 00:12:28,399
and how it would affect the global

363
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:30,399
advertising industry if there was ever a

364
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:31,200
success

365
00:12:34,389 --> 00:12:33,600
and then later i had a meal with a guy

366
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:34,399
who was like

367
00:12:38,230 --> 00:12:37,040
the top economist at like the imf or the

368
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:38,240
world bank or something like that i

369
00:12:40,150 --> 00:12:39,519
can't remember it's been so many years

370
00:12:41,829 --> 00:12:40,160
ago now

371
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:41,839
and that guy was like you know a three

372
00:12:44,949 --> 00:12:43,680
percent drop in global consumption and

373
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:44,959
pretty much it's all over

374
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:47,440
like what are you working on here buddy

375
00:12:50,629 --> 00:12:48,240
so it's

376
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:50,639
there's like this massive pushback not

377
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:53,040
just at a grassroots cultural level

378
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:54,959
but like if you're at the top level of

379
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,560
the system and you kind of understand

380
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:58,320
how it all works and whatever else this

381
00:13:01,750 --> 00:12:59,920
is a little freaky to you too

382
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:01,760
i told marty listen you know the people

383
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:03,360
that i know they still buy new cell

384
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:04,399
phones

385
00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:07,680
that's a great story that is

386
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:09,600
i don't want to go there too far because

387
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:11,040
we could fall into that

388
00:13:17,670 --> 00:13:14,800
and kind of never get out but right

389
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:17,680
it is it's almost too hard to resist

390
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:19,279
because

391
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:22,880
the intersection between culture

392
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:26,959
culture shaping and business is

393
00:13:31,990 --> 00:13:29,519
is so much more than i think people

394
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:32,000
realize and it does come into play

395
00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:33,360
with regard to these things that we're

396
00:13:36,069 --> 00:13:35,519
talking about and it may even explain

397
00:13:37,269 --> 00:13:36,079
why

398
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:37,279
you know as we were chatting about

399
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:39,120
before we kind of hit the record button

400
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:40,560
actually i had already hit the record

401
00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:43,360
button but we're chatting about is

402
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:46,480
you know it's almost like you

403
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:50,000
are now put in the position of marketing

404
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:51,839
against those guys

405
00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:53,680
and i guess that's what you're saying

406
00:13:56,550 --> 00:13:55,760
and that's a tough road to hoe and i

407
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,560
almost wonder

408
00:14:02,310 --> 00:13:58,800
it is you know i said this kind of at

409
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:02,320
the beginning of the interview and i i

410
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:05,760
every time i talk to you jeffrey i

411
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:08,880
halfway expect you to be a lot

412
00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:11,600
further down this path not not in terms

413
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:12,720
of the work that you've done

414
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:15,040
or the course which is fantastic but in

415
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,040
terms of its acceptance of it

416
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:18,880
and kind of when you say that the light

417
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:20,959
bulb goes off and it's like

418
00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:23,440
man you have a tough road to hoe because

419
00:14:27,189 --> 00:14:25,199
people are being told

420
00:14:29,350 --> 00:14:27,199
no matter how good it is you don't want

421
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:29,360
to go there you don't want to give up on

422
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:30,079
your

423
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:36,560
think you're going to have to give up on

424
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:38,399
and that's of course not true they don't

425
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:39,600
give up on it

426
00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:42,959
and it's it's even made worse

427
00:14:47,670 --> 00:14:45,680
by a lot of the people that are in the

428
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:47,680
traditional marketplace around this

429
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,079
stuff

430
00:14:51,430 --> 00:14:50,320
right and so one of the things that we

431
00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:51,440
did not long ago

432
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:54,240
is i did the survey of serious seekers

433
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:55,519
because i started to

434
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,800
just wonder more about like you know

435
00:15:03,189 --> 00:15:00,639
what's preventing even the people who

436
00:15:05,670 --> 00:15:03,199
are really who say they really want

437
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,680
to get to the type of stuff that we

438
00:15:09,269 --> 00:15:07,600
research what's preventing them from now

439
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:09,279
we know from our research that it's not

440
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,800
that hard to get to

441
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,800
right i mean you know we we just ran

442
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:14,800
this new experiment which was a six week

443
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:16,800
experiment that transitioned

444
00:15:22,629 --> 00:15:19,920
like 65 percent of people that took it

445
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:22,639
in six weeks right so this idea that

446
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:23,360
this is like

447
00:15:27,110 --> 00:15:26,160
in some way gonna suck decades of your

448
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,120
life

449
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:29,600
or whatever else away it's it's what is

450
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:31,120
it that i was thinking to myself what is

451
00:15:35,829 --> 00:15:32,880
it that's really preventing at this

452
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:35,839
point someone who's a serious seeker

453
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:38,639
from reaching this and it was a

454
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:40,399
fascinating answer

455
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:44,160
um i didn't realize how pervasive it was

456
00:15:47,189 --> 00:15:45,759
but for the people who are really

457
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:47,199
immersed in this like they're watching

458
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:48,880
all the videos and they're reading the

459
00:15:52,069 --> 00:15:50,320
books and

460
00:15:54,030 --> 00:15:52,079
you know they're just like this is the

461
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:54,040
thing they're

462
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:58,000
terrified of having success

463
00:16:01,269 --> 00:16:00,399
with this and the reason is because of

464
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:01,279
the way

465
00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:04,079
the people that are in that marketplace

466
00:16:07,829 --> 00:16:05,839
talk about it you know they cut they're

467
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:07,839
constantly saying things like you go

468
00:16:11,990 --> 00:16:08,959
away

469
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:12,000
and you know there is no me and things

470
00:16:15,189 --> 00:16:12,959
like that and

471
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:15,199
it turns out that that even for seekers

472
00:16:20,069 --> 00:16:16,720
who have absorbed a

473
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,079
ton of that material that's

474
00:16:23,829 --> 00:16:22,240
kind of a horrifying thing to hear so

475
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:23,839
imagine how horrifying it is for the

476
00:16:26,949 --> 00:16:25,360
average person

477
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:26,959
break that down a little bit just so

478
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:29,040
people we make sure that people

479
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:30,800
understand what we're talking about when

480
00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:32,000
we say words like

481
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:35,360
transition and the other people in that

482
00:16:39,269 --> 00:16:37,600
community and stuff like that so

483
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:39,279
again back to the basics you know

484
00:16:42,870 --> 00:16:41,120
there's the guy who's

485
00:16:44,710 --> 00:16:42,880
and not the guy because when you put

486
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:44,720
ford truck it's like we're putting down

487
00:16:49,910 --> 00:16:47,839
some you know bumpkin out in the country

488
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:49,920
man i live in southern california and

489
00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:52,880
it's you know it's the porsche

490
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:54,880
it's the mercedes it's whatever you want

491
00:16:58,389 --> 00:16:56,320
to put in there it's just

492
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:58,399
one thing substitute after another and

493
00:17:03,430 --> 00:17:00,240
as you said i think

494
00:17:03,990 --> 00:17:03,440
quite honestly and quite correctly you

495
00:17:07,029 --> 00:17:04,000
were

496
00:17:10,230 --> 00:17:07,039
fine-tuning your skills to replace

497
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:10,240
one artificial materialistic need after

498
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:11,919
another as part of your

499
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:15,120
marketing profession so you're over in

500
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:16,880
this thing and you say okay i really

501
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:17,760
want to

502
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:19,679
get at this fundamental sense of

503
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:21,039
discontentment that people

504
00:17:24,150 --> 00:17:22,640
feel as soon as they wake up even a

505
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:24,160
little bit and they say wow now that's

506
00:17:28,230 --> 00:17:25,360
really

507
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:28,240
doing it for me and one of the things we

508
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:30,400
should remind people of

509
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,080
that your methodology which i think is

510
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:34,640
just super duper from an entrepreneur's

511
00:17:36,870 --> 00:17:36,160
standpoint i just always thought was

512
00:17:39,190 --> 00:17:36,880
brilliant

513
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:39,200
you went around the country went around

514
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:40,799
the world and went to

515
00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:44,400
the best teachers you could find who

516
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:46,559
claimed that they knew something about

517
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,880
enlightenment about well-being

518
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,400
improvement and you said

519
00:17:54,870 --> 00:17:52,480
okay show me what you show me what you

520
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:54,880
know and you did these intensive deep

521
00:17:58,630 --> 00:17:56,880
you know 12-hour interviews with these

522
00:18:00,950 --> 00:17:58,640
people and then because you're a

523
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,960
top-notch social scientist and you went

524
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:02,559
to harvard and you

525
00:18:05,909 --> 00:18:04,640
are really smart you just compiled all

526
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:05,919
that down and said i'm gonna take the

527
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:07,840
best of best it's like a guy who wants

528
00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:09,440
to open up a pizza restaurant

529
00:18:13,750 --> 00:18:11,760
and goes to the best pizza restaurants

530
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,760
and goes in the back and sees the pizza

531
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,120
maker and says okay

532
00:18:18,150 --> 00:18:17,360
show me how you do it and then goes back

533
00:18:20,950 --> 00:18:18,160
and says well i

534
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:20,960
you know i i ought to be good i just sat

535
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:23,760
down with 100 of the best pizza makers

536
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:26,400
so that is really the origins of this

537
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:27,440
course

538
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:30,080
and then i think that puts some context

539
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:30,559
into

540
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:33,760
what you're talking about in terms of

541
00:18:37,350 --> 00:18:36,000
you know the pushback from people that

542
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:37,360
are

543
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:39,520
kind of in this space and and we should

544
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:40,720
fill in the gap there i mean you're

545
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:42,000
talking about like

546
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:46,080
if you go a guy who has a buddhist

547
00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:48,160
group you know and and buddhists kind of

548
00:18:51,510 --> 00:18:49,679
go all over the place especially in the

549
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:51,520
west but you know has his little

550
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:54,160
buddhist training and and that or you

551
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,280
know whether it's

552
00:18:58,470 --> 00:18:57,440
i'm sure it's also new christian

553
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:58,480
movements as well

554
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:00,720
you know they're all out there if you

555
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,080
think about it

556
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:05,440
in a way they're a competitor

557
00:19:09,110 --> 00:19:07,840
saying that we can increase your sense

558
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:09,120
of well-being

559
00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:12,799
if you come to believe what we believe

560
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:16,000
so did i accurately kind of

561
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:18,160
put some of those pieces in place in

562
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:19,360
terms of where you

563
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:21,440
fit in terms of coming along and say

564
00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:23,280
well maybe you ought to try this because

565
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:24,000
at least i've

566
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:27,120
tried my best to quantify the

567
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:28,960
effectiveness of this and

568
00:19:33,270 --> 00:19:30,640
the other ones you're following haven't

569
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:33,280
really done that

570
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:35,120
yeah we're the first ones to apply

571
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:36,799
science to it basically that's the only

572
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:39,360
thing that's different about us

573
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:41,360
and many people tried to apply science

574
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:42,400
to it in the past

575
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:44,240
i feel like we just came along at the

576
00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:46,000
right time with the internet and global

577
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:47,440
travel and

578
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:49,360
you know it was like the moment where

579
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:51,440
you could do what we did

580
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:53,120
and so that that's i think that's

581
00:19:57,909 --> 00:19:54,480
exactly right

582
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:57,919
but in the in the real hardcore of this

583
00:20:01,350 --> 00:20:00,480
of this there is this notion that people

584
00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:01,360
talk about that

585
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:04,080
that sounds terrifying to the average

586
00:20:09,909 --> 00:20:06,000
person and it turns out it's even

587
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:09,919
scary to the seeker of this you go away

588
00:20:13,830 --> 00:20:11,280
there you know there is no

589
00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:13,840
me there it's it's almost like it's this

590
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:16,000
it's this badge of honor or this

591
00:20:19,669 --> 00:20:18,799
benchmark sort of notion among all of

592
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:19,679
these folks and

593
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:22,559
the average person you know spends their

594
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:23,840
entire life

595
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,200
building up them it's like the one

596
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:29,919
thing that everybody is no matter who

597
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:30,960
you are

598
00:20:36,310 --> 00:20:34,320
right you're engaged from a young age

599
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,320
probably around age three or something

600
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:38,400
when episodic memory kicks in

601
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:42,080
um from that point on in

602
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:45,679
you know building you

603
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:47,679
so this notion that this thing that

604
00:20:52,549 --> 00:20:49,440
you've spent your entire

605
00:20:54,390 --> 00:20:52,559
life building up is going to go away is

606
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:54,400
a horrifying because that's your entire

607
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:56,080
interface to the world it's what makes

608
00:20:59,029 --> 00:20:57,679
you effective at work it's what makes

609
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:59,039
your marriage work it's what makes you a

610
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:00,159
good parent

611
00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:02,640
like it just sounds so terrifying and

612
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:03,440
it's so

613
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:06,640
incorrect let's talk about that

614
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:09,120
how incorrect is it and because i also

615
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:10,640
want to mention that

616
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:12,720
if we really get to the core of it that

617
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:14,640
is also the pitch

618
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:17,360
from the church down on the corner is

619
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:17,760
that

620
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:22,000
somehow lose the former

621
00:21:27,669 --> 00:21:25,120
you so this is a constant theme

622
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:27,679
and isn't there a kernel of truth in it

623
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:28,240
as well

624
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,760
and that you know we all talked about

625
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:31,440
that shift from the

626
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,880
i want the ford truck to

627
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:37,440
there's something more is a certain

628
00:21:42,870 --> 00:21:39,200
dying of that self

629
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:42,880
isn't there some reality to that as well

630
00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:44,720
yeah and i churches are a little tricky

631
00:21:48,149 --> 00:21:46,559
these days because you know it's hard to

632
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:48,159
hear this kind of a message in a mega

633
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:49,440
church which has become

634
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:51,120
you know more of the dominant type of

635
00:21:53,990 --> 00:21:52,960
church the other smaller churches that

636
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:54,000
talk about this stuff

637
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:56,960
kind of dying out um in america

638
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:58,240
certainly um

639
00:22:01,510 --> 00:22:00,159
and so christianity is is a little bit

640
00:22:04,549 --> 00:22:01,520
of an exception i feel like they

641
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:04,559
got better at talking about this um you

642
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:05,840
know they had

643
00:22:11,990 --> 00:22:08,880
jesus invite jesus into your heart

644
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:12,000
um the transformation was just

645
00:22:15,270 --> 00:22:13,600
kind of talked about and i think

646
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:15,280
different and i would say much

647
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:18,320
friendlier um one could even say much

648
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:20,159
more practical

649
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,520
kind of ways probably um you know

650
00:22:26,549 --> 00:22:25,360
and you think about joel osteen's

651
00:22:28,470 --> 00:22:26,559
prosperity gospel

652
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:28,480
and you know things like that where you

653
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,000
know

654
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:32,320
jesus and god want you to have a great

655
00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:33,840
life you know they don't want you to

656
00:22:36,710 --> 00:22:34,720
live in lack

657
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:36,720
kind of giving them a pass there jeffrey

658
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:38,799
a little bit i mean because they're

659
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:41,919
they're using that to

660
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:44,320
slip in a lot of other stuff where

661
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:46,000
you're explicitly

662
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:51,440
trying to strip it down

663
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:52,880
away from that so i just want to make

664
00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:54,720
sure we make it i just mean around the

665
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:56,559
sense of self-type stuff you know i feel

666
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,520
like

667
00:23:00,549 --> 00:22:59,280
christianity in some sense is a little

668
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:00,559
different in terms of what they

669
00:23:04,789 --> 00:23:03,280
say than like buddhism or hinduism or

670
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:04,799
the whole non-dual crowd

671
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:07,039
but how about back to that crowd how

672
00:23:10,070 --> 00:23:08,640
about back to that that point though

673
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:10,080
what do you think

674
00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:14,559
in terms of this this transformation

675
00:23:21,270 --> 00:23:17,760
is ultimately there isn't an

676
00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:21,280
element of letting go of yourself

677
00:23:24,710 --> 00:23:23,840
letting go of the self that you've built

678
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:24,720
up so

679
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:26,480
you know you're kind of saying hey hey

680
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,600
don't worry you can still have your

681
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:29,039
iphone and you don't have to divorce

682
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:29,919
your wife and

683
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:32,799
or your husband or whatever but there is

684
00:23:37,190 --> 00:23:33,520
a sense

685
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:37,200
of reintegration when you

686
00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:40,240
redefine who you are that's it

687
00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:42,320
yeah that's such a great that's such a

688
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:44,000
great thread for us to pull on i don't

689
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:45,919
know that we've pulled on it before

690
00:23:49,430 --> 00:23:47,760
um in previous interviews and it's such

691
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:49,440
an important part of our work

692
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:53,039
right now because what's there is

693
00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:56,080
definitely with many forms

694
00:24:01,830 --> 00:23:59,520
of this experience what feels like the

695
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:01,840
reason people talk about you go away

696
00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:03,600
right is because there's an element of

697
00:24:08,789 --> 00:24:05,600
it that feels like that

698
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:08,799
internally for sure right but

699
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:11,600
what they don't often then go on to say

700
00:24:15,430 --> 00:24:12,240
is

701
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:15,440
um but you know i still love golf and

702
00:24:19,350 --> 00:24:18,400
you know like shrimp is still my

703
00:24:21,110 --> 00:24:19,360
favorite meal

704
00:24:22,710 --> 00:24:21,120
and it's like it's like okay well where

705
00:24:24,630 --> 00:24:22,720
does all of that come from

706
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:24,640
where does shrimp is my favorite meal

707
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:26,400
where does i still wear polo shirts

708
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:27,919
instead of running around the woods

709
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:28,799
naked

710
00:24:32,549 --> 00:24:30,480
you know where does all of that come

711
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:32,559
from if it wasn't

712
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:34,320
that sense of self thing that you're

713
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:36,400
talking about went away because like

714
00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:37,919
you know i mean i haven't forgotten how

715
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,520
to do math

716
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:41,600
you know or like well those are all

717
00:24:46,310 --> 00:24:43,200
things that when people think about

718
00:24:47,350 --> 00:24:46,320
i'm building up me and who i am in the

719
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:47,360
world

720
00:24:51,029 --> 00:24:48,960
you know i think when you say you go

721
00:24:52,230 --> 00:24:51,039
away they think wow my ability to do

722
00:24:54,149 --> 00:24:52,240
math will go away

723
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:54,159
right my ability to dress and feed

724
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:56,080
myself will go like these are all things

725
00:25:00,390 --> 00:24:58,080
that are part of the story of who we

726
00:25:01,750 --> 00:25:00,400
are and how we show up in the world and

727
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:01,760
what makes it so terrifying and

728
00:25:06,149 --> 00:25:03,679
obviously none of those things

729
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:06,159
uh you know go away unless there's some

730
00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:07,279
head trauma or something that's

731
00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:08,960
associated with the person's transition

732
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:10,799
to fundamental well-being or whatever

733
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:11,440
right

734
00:25:18,149 --> 00:25:14,559
uh and so realistically

735
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:18,159
there is a sense no doubt

736
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:20,000
that it's what people are trying to

737
00:25:25,510 --> 00:25:23,039
convey something fundamentally changes

738
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,520
in your sense of self that old sort of

739
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:26,880
neurotic

740
00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:29,840
cluster of i think of it as habit

741
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:30,559
patterns

742
00:25:35,830 --> 00:25:34,480
that that's been built up probably since

743
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:35,840
about age two and a half

744
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:38,320
three when episodic memory kicks in you

745
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:40,480
know there's a profound rewiring that

746
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:42,000
goes on in the brain

747
00:25:47,029 --> 00:25:44,720
that starts to you know bypass a lot of

748
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:47,039
that stuff and how it feels

749
00:25:50,070 --> 00:25:49,679
in some forms of this experience is like

750
00:26:05,990 --> 00:25:50,080
a

751
00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:06,000
right

752
00:26:10,149 --> 00:26:08,000
you can have such a powerful it's very

753
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:10,159
very small minority of people

754
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:12,240
that have such a powerful transition to

755
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:14,080
this that they do lose functionality for

756
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:15,919
a period of years even while their

757
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,880
brain is rewiring uh you know you you

758
00:26:22,070 --> 00:26:19,840
think about

759
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:22,080
the famous uh spiritual teacher eckhart

760
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,679
tolle talks about how he would sit on a

761
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:25,360
park bench for a couple years outside

762
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:26,880
the library or whatever

763
00:26:33,909 --> 00:26:30,559
and you know um just sort of

764
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,919
trying to let a system reboot or regrock

765
00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:35,840
or whatever else so yeah you can have

766
00:26:39,750 --> 00:26:37,360
that kind of powerful experience

767
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:39,760
i think the downside for most people is

768
00:26:42,390 --> 00:26:40,559
that

769
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,400
it's people who had those types of

770
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:44,400
experiences who have tended in the west

771
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,720
to be more likely to become the teachers

772
00:26:51,430 --> 00:26:48,960
to write the books to whatever else and

773
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:51,440
so it leaves people with this sense of

774
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:52,240
like oh

775
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:54,720
well what happens after you transition

776
00:26:58,789 --> 00:26:56,880
is you wind up sitting on a park bench

777
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,799
for a couple of years trying to sort of

778
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:00,799
regrock your life and

779
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:03,600
you know and in reality you know that's

780
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:04,799
what happens to a

781
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:06,720
tiny tiny we've never had a single

782
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:08,559
person in our experiments like

783
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,720
i don't know 1500 2 000 people something

784
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:12,000
like that in our experiments at this

785
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:14,159
point of inducing this of transitioning

786
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,880
people to this

787
00:27:17,909 --> 00:27:16,640
we've never had a single person have the

788
00:27:21,350 --> 00:27:17,919
park bench

789
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:21,360
experience right an incredibly rare

790
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:23,919
experience to have the average person

791
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:25,520
just goes on with their life

792
00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:27,440
they don't stop to become a spiritual

793
00:27:31,350 --> 00:27:29,520
teacher they go back to work

794
00:27:33,669 --> 00:27:31,360
hold on because i mean there's there's

795
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:33,679
kind of two two parts of this

796
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:37,600
one is i can understand

797
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:39,840
uh the importance of what you're saying

798
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:41,039
is that

799
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:43,440
you know you offer this course people go

800
00:27:46,789 --> 00:27:45,360
through this course your experience is

801
00:27:48,389 --> 00:27:46,799
that it's safe

802
00:27:49,909 --> 00:27:48,399
and people come out the other side and

803
00:27:51,110 --> 00:27:49,919
they're able to reintegrate it in their

804
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:51,120
life and in general

805
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:53,360
they feel really great i would say that

806
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:54,960
not just with the course with

807
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:58,080
i mean we had 1200 plus research

808
00:28:02,549 --> 00:27:59,919
subjects before the course

809
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:02,559
you know even among that population this

810
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:04,480
is an extremely

811
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:06,799
rare when we started getting to people

812
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:08,960
that were just you know

813
00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:10,559
working at a meatpacking plant in

814
00:28:14,389 --> 00:28:12,559
oklahoma instead of

815
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:14,399
you know writing books and making

816
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:16,159
youtube videos about this and whatever

817
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:16,720
else

818
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:19,679
you don't hear i was i had to go sit on

819
00:28:23,029 --> 00:28:20,720
a park bench

820
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:23,039
for two years right i mean the average

821
00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:24,320
person

822
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:26,000
when totally talks about being on the

823
00:28:29,990 --> 00:28:27,440
park bench

824
00:28:31,669 --> 00:28:30,000
he talks about as being some of the best

825
00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:31,679
moments of his life

826
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:34,080
right that is eckhart tolle's account is

827
00:28:38,470 --> 00:28:35,760
that he was in complete

828
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:38,480
bliss on that park bench so we kind of

829
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,840
got to be careful

830
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:41,679
how we talk about this stuff i totally

831
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:42,960
accept what you're saying and i think

832
00:28:46,070 --> 00:28:43,279
it's

833
00:28:47,830 --> 00:28:46,080
important to get it out there but i

834
00:28:49,990 --> 00:28:47,840
think that this

835
00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:50,000
larger question about what's really

836
00:28:52,789 --> 00:28:51,440
going on because the other thing that i

837
00:28:53,909 --> 00:28:52,799
hear you saying that you know i don't

838
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:53,919
want to kind of jump

839
00:28:57,350 --> 00:28:56,399
all over words and lead us down a rabbit

840
00:29:00,389 --> 00:28:57,360
hole but this

841
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:00,399
rewiring of the brain we don't totally

842
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:04,320
understand that that is what's happening

843
00:29:08,070 --> 00:29:06,799
and even the neurological models that we

844
00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:08,080
would apply to it and

845
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,960
pop somebody into an fmri and see what's

846
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,159
happening in their brain

847
00:29:16,149 --> 00:29:14,000
we don't really understand what the

848
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:16,159
relationship would be between what we'd

849
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:17,520
be measuring there

850
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:20,960
and consciousness as it's somehow

851
00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:23,520
emerging or interacting between the

852
00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:24,080
brain

853
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:26,080
and this consciousness field and i'm

854
00:29:29,269 --> 00:29:27,520
going to get into a whole bunch of terms

855
00:29:31,990 --> 00:29:29,279
that we're not even going to visit

856
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:32,000
but i would say that this integration

857
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:32,960
problem

858
00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:35,200
it pops up all over the place like in

859
00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:36,399
some of the other like you go to

860
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:38,720
near-death experience stuff which i've

861
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:41,200
researched it a ton that's interesting

862
00:29:43,909 --> 00:29:41,919
and you'll

863
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:43,919
what you'll hear is no one talks about

864
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:45,760
it and then somebody like

865
00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:48,320
dr pmh atwater this woman who's kind of

866
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:49,360
a little bit

867
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:50,960
likes to be out there on the edge she

868
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:53,279
goes no man this is a major

869
00:29:57,669 --> 00:29:56,240
issue look at incidents of depression

870
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,679
incidents of divorce

871
00:30:01,830 --> 00:29:59,760
incidents of all these things people

872
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:01,840
would never change their near-death

873
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:02,720
experience

874
00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:05,120
but they have a tremendous problem

875
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:06,320
reintegrating

876
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:08,799
that's interesting transformation into

877
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:09,360
the life

878
00:30:12,389 --> 00:30:10,960
in a lot of the same ways that you're

879
00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:12,399
talking about in it

880
00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:15,679
it would even seem to suggest without

881
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:17,279
this is kind of a leap but i don't think

882
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:18,960
it is too much of one

883
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:22,399
is the you're offering people a safer

884
00:30:27,350 --> 00:30:23,200
path

885
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:27,360
of reintegration

886
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:29,440
versus if you have that near-death

887
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:31,200
experience and you're not the one

888
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:32,159
driving it

889
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:34,159
you're just boom you're set back in the

890
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:35,360
middle of

891
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:37,600
a new life and you have to pick up the

892
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:38,480
pieces

893
00:30:41,909 --> 00:30:40,799
so i don't know if we can make those

894
00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:41,919
connections but

895
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:43,520
in some sense maybe like a near-death

896
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:45,279
experience is sort of more like having

897
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:47,039
one of these more extreme transitions is

898
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:48,320
what you're saying which is that's

899
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:49,760
that's really interesting information

900
00:30:53,830 --> 00:30:51,600
that's what they report

901
00:30:55,830 --> 00:30:53,840
wow that's fascinating for you know i

902
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:55,840
think most people just transition to

903
00:30:58,789 --> 00:30:56,240
this

904
00:30:59,590 --> 00:30:58,799
and it's and they go on with their life

905
00:31:03,110 --> 00:30:59,600
um

906
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:03,120
it is it so one of the things that

907
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:05,440
that we've been working with lately has

908
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:06,640
been since you bring up the word

909
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,240
integration i actually think integration

910
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:10,080
is incredibly important

911
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,640
and that's a big focus of our work it's

912
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:14,480
been a big focus of our work for several

913
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:15,120
years now

914
00:31:18,630 --> 00:31:16,320
mostly because when we started

915
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,640
transitioning people years ago

916
00:31:22,389 --> 00:31:21,120
um it just became something that we had

917
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:22,399
you know we had to sort of help them on

918
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:24,000
the other side of it if you will

919
00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:25,840
to sort of recontextualize their

920
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:27,760
experience and it was just i didn't see

921
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:28,640
it coming

922
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,880
at the time this might be a good point

923
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:32,480
to kind of again

924
00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:34,960
take a step back and tell people what

925
00:31:39,029 --> 00:31:35,840
this process

926
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:39,039
is like so you s you're interested now

927
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:39,840
from

928
00:31:43,669 --> 00:31:42,159
in this course that you're offering they

929
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:43,679
sign up for the course

930
00:31:47,830 --> 00:31:46,159
they pay their money whatever it is now

931
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:47,840
whatever it will be in the future and

932
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:49,200
i want you to tell those numbers because

933
00:31:52,149 --> 00:31:51,200
you're not trying to hide any numbers or

934
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:52,159
anything like that

935
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,080
and then they get a group that they're

936
00:31:58,230 --> 00:31:56,159
kind of assigned to their cohort

937
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:58,240
which is a part of this process we you

938
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:00,000
you know it's part of the secret

939
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:02,480
sauce is that you have a if you form a

940
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:03,360
community of

941
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:04,480
people who are going to go through this

942
00:32:08,710 --> 00:32:06,720
process together it's going to help you

943
00:32:10,789 --> 00:32:08,720
make this transition and then you go

944
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,799
through and you practice and you have to

945
00:32:13,509 --> 00:32:12,000
work at this stuff

946
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,519
pretty hard and i want you to speak to

947
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:15,519
all that and then you're saying

948
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:18,159
at the end of that a good percentage of

949
00:32:21,509 --> 00:32:18,960
people

950
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,519
feel a positive change in their life but

951
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:23,279
then you're saying they did face this

952
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:25,840
issue of wow i've really redefined my

953
00:32:29,269 --> 00:32:27,200
life

954
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:29,279
i'm not sure i can deal with that on

955
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:31,360
kind of more of a day-to-day

956
00:32:39,269 --> 00:32:34,559
psychological psychology today kind of

957
00:32:42,389 --> 00:32:39,279
thing where are my neuroses

958
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:42,399
why don't i want the truck anymore why

959
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:44,159
aren't i willing to sacrifice

960
00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:47,039
20 hour work days to get the truck one

961
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:48,320
of the things that can happen

962
00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:50,880
with the transition to this is and that

963
00:32:53,750 --> 00:32:53,279
that has been encouraged i think for a

964
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:53,760
really

965
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:56,799
long time is so we use the term in the

966
00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:59,039
public these days fundamental well-being

967
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:00,799
you know our academic term is persistent

968
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:02,399
non-symbolic experience or ongoing

969
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:04,159
non-symbolic experience

970
00:33:07,269 --> 00:33:05,840
but that's kind of a mouthful for the

971
00:33:08,710 --> 00:33:07,279
average person and so when we wrote the

972
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:08,720
book you know i had to kind of think of

973
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:10,080
a term that i thought expressed

974
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:11,679
it well that we could use in the public

975
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:13,760
and so fundamental term is fundamental

976
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:15,760
well-being is sort of the bucket term

977
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:17,120
for all of these different things that

978
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:18,799
we studied and there are

979
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:21,200
hundreds and hundreds of terms you know

980
00:33:24,630 --> 00:33:23,200
non-duality enlightenment persistent

981
00:33:27,430 --> 00:33:24,640
mystical experience

982
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:27,440
shamanic ecstasy i mean you name it we

983
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:29,039
just catalogued a ton of terms

984
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,399
all around the world that people use for

985
00:33:33,269 --> 00:33:32,159
this so that's our one bucket term so

986
00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:33,279
when you hear me use the word

987
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:34,880
fundamental well-being basically that's

988
00:33:38,950 --> 00:33:36,720
what i'm referring to

989
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:38,960
so from a fundamental well-being

990
00:33:43,509 --> 00:33:41,440
standpoint for the most part it has been

991
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:43,519
fundamental well-being for fundamental

992
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:44,960
well-being sake

993
00:33:48,630 --> 00:33:47,039
that has been advocated right and so

994
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:48,640
when you transition to fundamental

995
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:50,000
well-being your goal

996
00:33:55,190 --> 00:33:53,039
is to sit on that park bench in bliss

997
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:55,200
right i mean one of the things that that

998
00:33:57,590 --> 00:33:56,880
you know when you hear eckert talking

999
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,600
about

1000
00:34:02,870 --> 00:33:59,679
that and how it was one of the greatest

1001
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:02,880
times of his life or whatever

1002
00:34:08,069 --> 00:34:06,960
sitting just sinking in to fundamental

1003
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:08,079
well-being

1004
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:11,599
can absolutely be phenomenal

1005
00:34:16,629 --> 00:34:14,720
and if you've got enough money and your

1006
00:34:17,829 --> 00:34:16,639
life situation that affords you if

1007
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:17,839
you're like him you're not married and

1008
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:19,520
don't have kids

1009
00:34:23,669 --> 00:34:21,440
and you've got some savings you know

1010
00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:23,679
that you can live on to rent a room in a

1011
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:25,280
flat and go back and sleep in at night

1012
00:34:29,750 --> 00:34:26,639
or whatever else

1013
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:29,760
then that's certainly a valid life

1014
00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:30,879
choice

1015
00:34:34,069 --> 00:34:32,480
that someone can make you could sit on

1016
00:34:36,629 --> 00:34:34,079
that park bench for the next

1017
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:36,639
40 years if you've got enough savings to

1018
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:37,359
do it

1019
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:39,599
uh and if that's the way that you want

1020
00:34:42,069 --> 00:34:41,280
your life to unfold from that point

1021
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:42,079
that's fine

1022
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:44,720
and a lot of this has been sort of

1023
00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:46,879
what's advocated the hindus came up with

1024
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,760
a great

1025
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:49,679
way of dealing with this you know where

1026
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:51,200
they basically said don't even think

1027
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:52,560
about transitioning to fundamental

1028
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:54,480
well-being until you were retired

1029
00:34:57,349 --> 00:34:55,839
you know there's a stage in your life

1030
00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:57,359
where you're growing up there's a stage

1031
00:34:59,589 --> 00:34:58,560
where you're going to school there's a

1032
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:59,599
stage where you're working and

1033
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:00,800
you're raising your family and when

1034
00:35:03,510 --> 00:35:02,320
you're done with all of that fine then

1035
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:03,520
transition to this

1036
00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:05,040
and you can sit on your porch sink into

1037
00:35:08,230 --> 00:35:06,720
bliss for the rest of your life you know

1038
00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:08,240
if that's what

1039
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:10,160
if you've done a good job with the other

1040
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:11,520
things with the other elements in your

1041
00:35:13,589 --> 00:35:12,000
life

1042
00:35:14,870 --> 00:35:13,599
up to that point and you do get to a

1043
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:14,880
place where you can retire and all of

1044
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:16,000
that right

1045
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:18,160
and so that's totally fine and i don't

1046
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:19,359
want to disparage that

1047
00:35:23,829 --> 00:35:21,760
as a legitimate wife choice and life

1048
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:23,839
path or whatever in any way because i

1049
00:35:29,109 --> 00:35:26,160
think that's perfectly valid

1050
00:35:30,950 --> 00:35:29,119
but for the vast majority of people

1051
00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:30,960
that's really not an option

1052
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:33,200
you know they're they're not living in a

1053
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:34,560
life circumstance

1054
00:35:38,550 --> 00:35:36,720
where this traditional notion where it's

1055
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:38,560
all about fundamental well-being for

1056
00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:39,839
fundamental well-being

1057
00:35:46,950 --> 00:35:45,040
sake is something that is even possible

1058
00:35:48,390 --> 00:35:46,960
for them unless they want to go sleep

1059
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:48,400
under a bridge for the rest of their

1060
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:49,200
life or

1061
00:35:53,270 --> 00:35:50,880
you know something like that right

1062
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:53,280
abandon raising their kids

1063
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:55,520
um you know there's just there's so many

1064
00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:57,280
potential consequences

1065
00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:59,359
in the average person's life so does it

1066
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,800
mean that you should just wait until

1067
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:01,920
retirement

1068
00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:03,839
you know for this we're going to solve

1069
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,520
it the way it was solved

1070
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:07,440
uh you know in one region of the world

1071
00:36:10,550 --> 00:36:09,920
well that's one way that sort of one

1072
00:36:13,270 --> 00:36:10,560
culture

1073
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:13,280
came you know to grips with this but i

1074
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:14,000
think you know

1075
00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:15,760
in the same sense that science can sort

1076
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:17,920
of wrap its arms around this

1077
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:21,040
um and

1078
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:24,400
tease out shorter more reliable

1079
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:26,560
safer whatever sort of paths to get to

1080
00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:28,960
this i think science can also wrap its

1081
00:36:32,310 --> 00:36:30,720
way around this as an integration

1082
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:32,320
problem and say you know

1083
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:36,000
over here on this side of the fence

1084
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:37,599
if we have fundamental well-being for

1085
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,119
fundamental well-being sake

1086
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:41,839
and over here on this side of the fence

1087
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:43,280
if we have

1088
00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:45,599
you know traditional culture which is

1089
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:47,680
narrative self-based which

1090
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,680
is not going to yield it all to the

1091
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:51,520
fundamental well-being side of the fence

1092
00:36:53,910 --> 00:36:51,920
like

1093
00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:53,920
you know there isn't the narrative self

1094
00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:55,680
side of the world the egoic side of the

1095
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:57,359
world our traditional culture it's not

1096
00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:58,000
going to be like

1097
00:37:02,150 --> 00:36:59,280
tomorrow it's not going to wake up and

1098
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,160
be like oh my god fundamental well-being

1099
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:04,480
people you have completely figured it

1100
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:05,280
out let's just

1101
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:07,440
change everything about culture and

1102
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:08,480
society

1103
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:10,560
to adapt to you right the fundamental

1104
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,160
well-being people have to adapt

1105
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,880
themselves to the culture and you have

1106
00:37:17,589 --> 00:37:16,400
to sort of work your way to this

1107
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:17,599
integration and so

1108
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:19,680
a lot of our work these days is around

1109
00:37:25,190 --> 00:37:22,240
how in a modern context

1110
00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:25,200
do you optimize fundamental well-being

1111
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:25,520
for

1112
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:28,320
living a modern life and it's strangely

1113
00:37:32,870 --> 00:37:29,599
something that just

1114
00:37:34,790 --> 00:37:32,880
hasn't been worked on much

1115
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:34,800
and i part of it is just because of that

1116
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:36,320
intellectual and belief

1117
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:39,200
inheritance around you know listen once

1118
00:37:42,470 --> 00:37:40,720
you get to this man

1119
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,480
it's fundamental well-being for

1120
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,880
fundamental well-being's sake it's like

1121
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:46,640
you put your butt down on that park

1122
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,640
bench and you know if that's

1123
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:50,640
if your last possession is your shirt

1124
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:52,160
man don't get off that park bench

1125
00:37:54,390 --> 00:37:53,359
because you've been waiting your whole

1126
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,400
life for this

1127
00:37:57,829 --> 00:37:56,320
to sink into you know this sort of it

1128
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:57,839
does it seems to me that there's no

1129
00:38:02,230 --> 00:37:58,720
reason

1130
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,240
that these things cannot be integrated

1131
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:04,400
essentially and so that's a that's a

1132
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:06,000
huge piece of what we're working on

1133
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:07,760
right now you know when someone gets out

1134
00:38:11,990 --> 00:38:09,520
of one of our programs

1135
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:12,000
um i've just started i we've had a

1136
00:38:14,470 --> 00:38:12,720
program for this

1137
00:38:15,990 --> 00:38:14,480
for a long time it was an experiment in

1138
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:16,000
this that we've been doing for years

1139
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:17,359
called the explorers course because i

1140
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:18,800
think that people go from fine

1141
00:38:22,470 --> 00:38:21,119
from seeking to finding and from finding

1142
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:22,480
to exploring the world

1143
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:24,480
from like a much greater sense of

1144
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:25,680
freedom and

1145
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:27,920
possibility than they had before they

1146
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:30,320
don't they're not compulsively seeking

1147
00:38:32,069 --> 00:38:31,680
like they used to be but like there's

1148
00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:32,079
still

1149
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:34,640
a world right i mean and so they're you

1150
00:38:37,349 --> 00:38:35,839
know how they're showing up in that

1151
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:37,359
world is this kind of a

1152
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:39,839
freer a more free explorer of sorts

1153
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:40,560
right

1154
00:38:44,390 --> 00:38:42,720
and it what's occurred to me over the

1155
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:44,400
years is that

1156
00:38:48,310 --> 00:38:46,880
that exploring metaphor is great and i

1157
00:38:50,550 --> 00:38:48,320
think it's very accurate

1158
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:50,560
but it's not necessarily what the

1159
00:38:54,470 --> 00:38:51,680
average person

1160
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:54,480
needs in the finders course four months

1161
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:55,440
long

1162
00:38:59,349 --> 00:38:57,920
you know two to three thousand dollars

1163
00:39:01,589 --> 00:38:59,359
to go through

1164
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:01,599
there were you know it's a it was a very

1165
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:02,880
limited percentage of

1166
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,880
people that could take advantage of the

1167
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:06,000
finders course and

1168
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:07,839
a lot of the people who could were

1169
00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:09,920
actually retired

1170
00:39:16,950 --> 00:39:14,240
right and so if you think about it

1171
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:16,960
we had this pool of subjects that were

1172
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,040
really sort of skewed in the direction

1173
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:21,839
of retirees and they could just go to

1174
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:22,960
the park bench

1175
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:24,720
or they could just go to the cave they

1176
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:26,240
were kind of set up for that they were

1177
00:39:29,829 --> 00:39:28,160
retirees that could shell out two to

1178
00:39:32,790 --> 00:39:29,839
three thousand dollars

1179
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:32,800
for a program which most retirees can't

1180
00:39:35,349 --> 00:39:34,480
you know most retirees like if they have

1181
00:39:38,230 --> 00:39:35,359
a 200

1182
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:38,240
expense it's like the end of the world

1183
00:39:40,950 --> 00:39:38,720
um

1184
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:40,960
and so this is a very sort of unique

1185
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:42,880
subset of people that were able to take

1186
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:43,839
advantage

1187
00:39:47,910 --> 00:39:46,560
of our initial set of experiments did

1188
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:47,920
you see that going in or is that

1189
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:48,960
something you kind of

1190
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:52,240
realized afterwards yeah i realized that

1191
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:53,440
coming out of it really

1192
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:55,040
you know realized that when we really

1193
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:56,560
started to crunch those

1194
00:40:02,390 --> 00:39:59,839
numbers um and look at

1195
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,400
i mean people didn't have kids for the

1196
00:40:06,309 --> 00:40:04,400
most part you know it was very rare for

1197
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:06,319
someone to have young children

1198
00:40:10,069 --> 00:40:08,240
and to have taken the finders course

1199
00:40:12,309 --> 00:40:10,079
it's not that there was nobody

1200
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:12,319
but you know if you've got young kids

1201
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:13,280
and a job

1202
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:14,640
and you're trying to hold your marriage

1203
00:40:17,190 --> 00:40:16,480
together and we're saying to you can you

1204
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:17,200
just give us

1205
00:40:20,230 --> 00:40:19,119
three hours of your life every day for

1206
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:20,240
four months

1207
00:40:23,990 --> 00:40:22,800
right i mean people are like hell no i

1208
00:40:25,829 --> 00:40:24,000
can't give you three hours

1209
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:25,839
of my life every day for four months are

1210
00:40:29,589 --> 00:40:27,760
you insane like do you have any

1211
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:29,599
realization of what my life is like

1212
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:30,400
right

1213
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:34,400
um and so you know just skewed to young

1214
00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:36,800
professionals that didn't have kids you

1215
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:38,160
know that were

1216
00:40:41,510 --> 00:40:40,160
working nine to five jobs that paid them

1217
00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:41,520
reasonably well

1218
00:40:47,670 --> 00:40:44,880
and you know in a way that kind of

1219
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:47,680
lends it kind of lends credibility and

1220
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:49,440
support to

1221
00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:51,680
what you're all about from the beginning

1222
00:40:55,589 --> 00:40:52,960
in that like

1223
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:55,599
if you would really put on more of your

1224
00:40:59,510 --> 00:40:56,720
marketing hat

1225
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:59,520
from the beginning and said okay what's

1226
00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:00,480
the best price

1227
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:04,000
reach this demographic

1228
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:05,599
and how can we provide the least amount

1229
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,000
of services in order to get the

1230
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:10,160
best kind of reoccurring revenue stream

1231
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,240
you wouldn't have done it that way

1232
00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:14,160
and i think it speaks to the fact that

1233
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:15,760
you did it the other way around you're

1234
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:16,319
saying

1235
00:41:22,069 --> 00:41:19,599
no you know this is a fundamental

1236
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:22,079
cultural shift we're talking about i

1237
00:41:27,510 --> 00:41:24,319
love the way you put it i wrote it down

1238
00:41:31,670 --> 00:41:27,520
you know switching the culture

1239
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:31,680
from a egocentric narrative-centric

1240
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:34,640
mindset to uh what did you call it

1241
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,800
fundamental well-being mindset

1242
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:38,000
i mean i think you really got to let

1243
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:40,640
that sink in culturally and as you said

1244
00:41:44,390 --> 00:41:41,920
in that story that was

1245
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:44,400
fantastic story i mean the culture

1246
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:45,040
shapers

1247
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:47,359
will never let that happen i mean that

1248
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:48,640
just will

1249
00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:51,920
not happen on a large scale but that

1250
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:53,680
doesn't matter you could still

1251
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:56,319
to use your term transition tens of

1252
00:42:00,390 --> 00:41:57,520
millions of people

1253
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:00,400
and do it basically under the radar and

1254
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:02,000
all the rest of them can go on and buy

1255
00:42:06,390 --> 00:42:02,560
their

1256
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:06,400
mean it's not

1257
00:42:09,190 --> 00:42:07,440
like i said if you're just trying to

1258
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:09,200
build a cult or if you're just trying to

1259
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:10,880
make a money-making machine

1260
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:13,040
you know the the way you did it wasn't

1261
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:13,920
really

1262
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,400
probably the best no that would have

1263
00:42:21,670 --> 00:42:18,079
been a very stupid way

1264
00:42:23,109 --> 00:42:21,680
to forget about that for sure

1265
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:23,119
i mean there's such a there's a thing in

1266
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:24,960
you know product design and marketing

1267
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:26,480
and all of that called product market

1268
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:27,680
fit right i mean

1269
00:42:31,910 --> 00:42:29,280
if you would have had to you could not

1270
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:31,920
have possibly gotten

1271
00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:34,079
further from the concept of product

1272
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:35,520
market fit

1273
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:37,920
and come up with a protocol like the

1274
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:40,240
finders chorus it's just like

1275
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:42,800
it's it's that's that made it brutal you

1276
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:43,599
know

1277
00:42:47,750 --> 00:42:46,240
for all of those years uh for sure but

1278
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:47,760
that's one of the great you know but one

1279
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:49,200
of the things that you do i was

1280
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:51,760
i was with um a friend of mine who's a

1281
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:53,440
venture capitalist out here in silicon

1282
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:54,880
valley named tim chang who's

1283
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,400
who's one of the greats i think

1284
00:43:01,430 --> 00:43:00,480
in the venture capital space you know

1285
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:01,440
just in terms of

1286
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:03,280
who he is as a person who he is as a

1287
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:05,920
human being his own evolution his own

1288
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:08,000
you know evolutionary path

1289
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:11,440
um what he funds from what is really a

1290
00:43:14,069 --> 00:43:12,079
major

1291
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:14,079
firm that he's at out here one of the

1292
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:15,680
great firms

1293
00:43:22,390 --> 00:43:19,200
um and you know we were talking about

1294
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:22,400
um some transformative technology stuff

1295
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:24,160
and the conversation turned to finders

1296
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:25,440
course and he said you know it's really

1297
00:43:29,270 --> 00:43:26,880
interesting because

1298
00:43:31,670 --> 00:43:29,280
obviously from my speaking with him you

1299
00:43:33,670 --> 00:43:31,680
know obviously from my perspective

1300
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:33,680
you know i can see what you've done is

1301
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:35,920
exactly sort of systematically what one

1302
00:43:39,750 --> 00:43:37,280
would do

1303
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:39,760
in a product development sort of way

1304
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:40,960
he's like you know you

1305
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:43,359
started with you know your fundamental

1306
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:45,040
and basic research you made sure that

1307
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:46,480
that research was sound

1308
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,640
then you put that research to the test

1309
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:50,400
to see if it really did

1310
00:43:55,349 --> 00:43:53,200
you know what you thought it would do um

1311
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:55,359
continuing to do research on that to

1312
00:43:58,710 --> 00:43:56,800
make sure it was sound

1313
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:58,720
and he said you know and of course you

1314
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:01,119
start off in a situation where it's only

1315
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:02,800
people like me

1316
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:04,960
that can probably afford it and that can

1317
00:44:09,990 --> 00:44:07,359
afford to do it and that's

1318
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:10,000
that's fundamentally sort of an unfair

1319
00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:12,000
part of our whole consumer world our

1320
00:44:15,270 --> 00:44:13,599
home consumer culture

1321
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:15,280
but that's just the way products start

1322
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:17,200
they often have to start at

1323
00:44:20,710 --> 00:44:19,040
this very somebody who has a lot of

1324
00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:20,720
disposable income

1325
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:23,520
and you know more disposable time

1326
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:25,760
perhaps than others in order to be able

1327
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:26,160
to

1328
00:44:34,230 --> 00:44:31,760
make because

1329
00:44:36,309 --> 00:44:34,240
your uh your telling of the story there

1330
00:44:38,470 --> 00:44:36,319
is a little bit of uh kind of uh

1331
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:38,480
sounds like a venture capitalist weaving

1332
00:44:42,230 --> 00:44:39,440
you know

1333
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:42,240
re reimagining the story because because

1334
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:42,880
no really

1335
00:44:46,069 --> 00:44:44,720
i love other people's perspectives on

1336
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:46,079
this though you know because it really

1337
00:44:49,670 --> 00:44:46,960
helps you to

1338
00:44:50,950 --> 00:44:49,680
add hold to my perspective which is i

1339
00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:50,960
think you were doing it for different

1340
00:44:53,670 --> 00:44:52,319
reasons i think you were doing it for

1341
00:44:54,550 --> 00:44:53,680
the reasons because you were really

1342
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:54,560
interested

1343
00:44:59,109 --> 00:44:57,040
in making sure that people could make

1344
00:45:01,430 --> 00:44:59,119
this fundamental transition

1345
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:01,440
because otherwise no i mean i'm an

1346
00:45:03,990 --> 00:45:02,480
entrepreneur

1347
00:45:05,670 --> 00:45:04,000
too i mean you would have just gone out

1348
00:45:07,349 --> 00:45:05,680
and gotten some money and sold the

1349
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:07,359
course for 99

1350
00:45:10,390 --> 00:45:08,640
from the beginning because that's the

1351
00:45:11,270 --> 00:45:10,400
price point and you would have gotten

1352
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:11,280
them out there and you wouldn't have

1353
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:13,440
spent so much time sweating all the

1354
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:15,280
metrics and all the rest of that crap

1355
00:45:19,510 --> 00:45:17,520
and you you would have approached it

1356
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:19,520
differently i think your your friend tim

1357
00:45:26,630 --> 00:45:21,760
is being kind but i think he's

1358
00:45:28,150 --> 00:45:26,640
distorting it from a business standpoint

1359
00:45:30,390 --> 00:45:28,160
i that you know there's truth in that

1360
00:45:32,309 --> 00:45:30,400
but there's also i think in me

1361
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:32,319
all of these different elements you know

1362
00:45:36,230 --> 00:45:33,839
the whole thing really started just

1363
00:45:38,790 --> 00:45:36,240
because i wanted to get happier

1364
00:45:40,470 --> 00:45:38,800
right and so the the initial impetus for

1365
00:45:41,430 --> 00:45:40,480
this wasn't i want other people to be

1366
00:45:43,829 --> 00:45:41,440
happy

1367
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:43,839
it was a type a high achieving

1368
00:45:47,510 --> 00:45:44,800
personality

1369
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:47,520
saying you know okay how do i achieve

1370
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:48,800
with my own well-being

1371
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:50,880
and having taken a crap ton of other

1372
00:45:55,109 --> 00:45:52,800
courses basically given up on the belief

1373
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:55,119
that anybody else had an answer for them

1374
00:45:58,630 --> 00:45:57,119
uh and so saying all right well i'm

1375
00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:58,640
going to stop what i'm doing with this

1376
00:46:02,550 --> 00:46:00,240
other stuff because if i keep doing it

1377
00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:02,560
i'm going to be as happy as i am today

1378
00:46:06,069 --> 00:46:04,240
and i want it's not what i want that's

1379
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,079
not the outcome that i want for my life

1380
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:08,079
so how do i take my high performing self

1381
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:09,520
and point it in the direction of getting

1382
00:46:13,510 --> 00:46:11,040
to more happiness right

1383
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:13,520
and so if you look at the actual genesis

1384
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,960
of this whole project it was an

1385
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:16,960
incredibly selfish endeavor

1386
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:19,040
by you know what at the time was sort of

1387
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:20,880
a type a high achieving

1388
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:23,119
person to get to their own level of

1389
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:24,800
happiness i don't i don't see that

1390
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:26,560
i don't see that but that's another

1391
00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:29,040
that's another story but then it became

1392
00:46:33,910 --> 00:46:31,359
it did you're right it did become really

1393
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:33,920
a moral obligation i think from from my

1394
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:35,280
perspective

1395
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:37,359
i think as you sat there at a young age

1396
00:46:41,030 --> 00:46:38,720
and watched your mom

1397
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,040
on the christian broadcasting network

1398
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:42,960
you saw both sides of it and you saw the

1399
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:44,800
side of it that you wanted to strip away

1400
00:46:48,870 --> 00:46:46,960
which is the fake side but you saw the

1401
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:48,880
other side of it that people really do

1402
00:46:52,390 --> 00:46:51,520
need possible our psychologists are all

1403
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,400
full of blind spots

1404
00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:54,480
you might be one of those people on the

1405
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:56,000
other end of that who really

1406
00:46:59,829 --> 00:46:57,920
does need to make some kind of

1407
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:59,839
transition and helping people make a

1408
00:47:03,190 --> 00:47:00,800
transition

1409
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:03,200
like that is probably one of the highest

1410
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:04,560
callings we can have

1411
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,280
if we can keep our own crap out of it

1412
00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:09,119
which it seems like you've really really

1413
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:10,720
tried to do

1414
00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:13,520
and so now i think benefit of science

1415
00:47:16,870 --> 00:47:14,800
well

1416
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:16,880
that is that is that is one of the that

1417
00:47:20,309 --> 00:47:18,640
is one of the benefits of science which

1418
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:20,319
we're at such an interesting

1419
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:22,400
point in our history here too which we

1420
00:47:28,309 --> 00:47:24,319
will not get off on that thing but

1421
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:28,319
science has been so so

1422
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:30,720
disordered distorted and misused at this

1423
00:47:35,670 --> 00:47:32,480
point in our history and it's

1424
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:35,680
really really difficult to

1425
00:47:39,030 --> 00:47:37,280
sort through you know who's really

1426
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:39,040
telling the truth and who's using it as

1427
00:48:07,750 --> 00:47:39,359
a

1428
00:48:12,150 --> 00:48:07,760
this other term

1429
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:12,160
is creating a culture centered around

1430
00:48:15,950 --> 00:48:14,559
fundamental well-being and you had a

1431
00:48:19,109 --> 00:48:15,960
vision for that that

1432
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:19,119
expanded way beyond reaching

1433
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:22,400
a few thousand people in a course and

1434
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:25,280
so you have both a technology component

1435
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:26,800
that you're working on towards that long

1436
00:48:30,710 --> 00:48:27,280
term

1437
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:30,720
seeing a way to

1438
00:48:34,150 --> 00:48:33,040
change your course to reach larger

1439
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,160
numbers of people

1440
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:36,480
who didn't fit those requirements that

1441
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:37,520
you had in the first

1442
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:41,119
course so let's talk about that

1443
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:44,160
yeah yeah absolutely

1444
00:48:47,349 --> 00:48:45,760
i was thinking the other day you know

1445
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:47,359
about a month ago as we shoot this

1446
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:48,319
interview

1447
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:52,640
uh june 12th i turned 50. um

1448
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:56,319
and as i was coming up

1449
00:48:59,910 --> 00:48:58,160
in you know i mean i've been i started

1450
00:49:02,549 --> 00:48:59,920
this when i was 35

1451
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,559
really made the life change went back to

1452
00:49:06,069 --> 00:49:04,480
school at 36

1453
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:06,079
you know i just sort of decided on how i

1454
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:08,640
might approach it you know by age 36

1455
00:49:12,150 --> 00:49:10,640
and was heading down that track did some

1456
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:12,160
preliminary stuff

1457
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:15,680
starting at 35 so you're talking about

1458
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:19,040
all of the second half of my 30s all of

1459
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:20,000
my 40s

1460
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:22,480
which are of course the most productive

1461
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:23,760
times

1462
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:26,240
from you know sort of an individual

1463
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:27,920
lifespan you look at the business

1464
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:29,760
research on all that type of stuff when

1465
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:31,280
are people most productive what's their

1466
00:49:34,630 --> 00:49:32,800
peak productive years or whatever those

1467
00:49:38,069 --> 00:49:34,640
are the peak productive years

1468
00:49:39,990 --> 00:49:38,079
basically um and so i was

1469
00:49:42,390 --> 00:49:40,000
as as it started to roll into my late

1470
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:42,400
40s you know when i hit 45 i was

1471
00:49:45,589 --> 00:49:44,160
thinking to myself

1472
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:45,599
geez it doesn't seem like there's an end

1473
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:48,000
in sight here um but

1474
00:49:53,670 --> 00:49:51,599
gosh it would sure be nice if you know

1475
00:49:54,870 --> 00:49:53,680
we could have something that was

1476
00:49:58,630 --> 00:49:54,880
available

1477
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:58,640
to way more people by the time i'm 50.

1478
00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:01,119
and it's it's funny because at the time

1479
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:01,920
that 50

1480
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:05,680
hit i was in iowa and i was doing

1481
00:50:08,390 --> 00:50:06,480
research

1482
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:08,400
with our direct brain stimulation

1483
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:09,599
technology which is

1484
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:11,680
5 10 years away you know still at this

1485
00:50:16,870 --> 00:50:13,760
point um

1486
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,880
but nonetheless showing huge promise and

1487
00:50:20,069 --> 00:50:18,160
you know we're on the bleeding edge of

1488
00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:20,079
all of that whole space

1489
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:24,079
and all of that um and i was you know

1490
00:50:29,589 --> 00:50:27,520
not really doing what i

1491
00:50:30,790 --> 00:50:29,599
should have been doing to hit that 50

1492
00:50:34,390 --> 00:50:30,800
mark

1493
00:50:35,430 --> 00:50:34,400
and then the virus hit and i couldn't be

1494
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:35,440
in a lab

1495
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:38,240
with subjects putting transcranial

1496
00:50:41,109 --> 00:50:39,119
ultrasound

1497
00:50:43,190 --> 00:50:41,119
and you know other of these various

1498
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:43,200
technologies on their head

1499
00:50:47,510 --> 00:50:46,000
i had to basically i went to i'm from

1500
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,520
peoria illinois so there's still

1501
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:49,440
houses in peoria illinois so i went to a

1502
00:50:53,270 --> 00:50:50,960
house on the river sort of on

1503
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:53,280
peoria river illinois river peoria lake

1504
00:50:56,069 --> 00:50:54,079
beautiful

1505
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:56,079
view great place for somebody who's in

1506
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:58,000
fundamental well-being to sink into

1507
00:51:01,190 --> 00:50:59,040
peace

1508
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:01,200
out the you know wall of back windows

1509
00:51:06,069 --> 00:51:03,040
every day and all of that right

1510
00:51:07,750 --> 00:51:06,079
um and while i was there i was like well

1511
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:07,760
crap you know okay i've got the

1512
00:51:11,430 --> 00:51:09,359
ultrasound with i can experiment on

1513
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:11,440
myself or a handful of friends maybe in

1514
00:51:14,710 --> 00:51:12,640
peoria right

1515
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,720
um but like what am i going to do during

1516
00:51:20,470 --> 00:51:16,000
this time

1517
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:20,480
and it's there was this there was this

1518
00:51:25,349 --> 00:51:24,000
really important thing about the finders

1519
00:51:27,190 --> 00:51:25,359
course data

1520
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:27,200
and that is that the finders course

1521
00:51:32,470 --> 00:51:29,119
experiments transitioned about

1522
00:51:33,910 --> 00:51:32,480
70 of people that successfully completed

1523
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:33,920
them you know that went all the way

1524
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:34,559
through

1525
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:36,480
the protocol gave us pre-measures went

1526
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:37,599
all the way through gave us post

1527
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:39,119
measures that's what that's what i call

1528
00:51:42,390 --> 00:51:41,280
an alumni or somebody who successfully

1529
00:51:46,790 --> 00:51:42,400
completes

1530
00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:46,800
that protocol in that data of that 70

1531
00:51:55,109 --> 00:51:47,920
percent

1532
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:55,119
happen from one type of method

1533
00:51:59,109 --> 00:51:57,920
and i'd always in the back of my head

1534
00:52:02,230 --> 00:51:59,119
wanted to go back

1535
00:52:04,630 --> 00:52:02,240
and do a smaller experiment

1536
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:04,640
around just that you know what happens

1537
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:07,200
if you just take those methods

1538
00:52:10,470 --> 00:52:09,200
and you kind of put them on their own in

1539
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,480
their own thing

1540
00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:13,119
but i would have never done it frankly

1541
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:13,680
if not

1542
00:52:18,870 --> 00:52:16,319
for the virus hitting because i i would

1543
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:18,880
just so heads down on the possibility of

1544
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:20,720
the direct brain stimulation stuff and

1545
00:52:22,630 --> 00:52:21,280
it's

1546
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:22,640
you know really where we're at we're

1547
00:52:26,470 --> 00:52:24,400
researching the integration piece for

1548
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:26,480
people that have already transitioned

1549
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:28,079
that's getting a lot of time we're doing

1550
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:29,440
the direct brain stimulation that's

1551
00:52:32,309 --> 00:52:30,880
getting a lot of time there's no way i

1552
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:32,319
would have started a new

1553
00:52:36,230 --> 00:52:34,319
thing around transitioning in my mind

1554
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:36,240
like the finders course was out there

1555
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:37,520
even though not a lot of people could

1556
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:38,880
take advantage of it if you were really

1557
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:40,640
serious about transitioning

1558
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:42,720
you could take it and you could you know

1559
00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:44,319
you'd have you had great odds of it

1560
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,920
working for you like i kind of felt like

1561
00:52:49,829 --> 00:52:47,520
we'd done enough

1562
00:52:51,990 --> 00:52:49,839
um for the time being on that and the

1563
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:52,000
real future was in this technology stuff

1564
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:54,000
and we i just had to spend a lot of time

1565
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:55,760
on it getting it to that point where it

1566
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:57,520
could really affect billions of people

1567
00:53:01,829 --> 00:52:58,640
right

1568
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:01,839
but covet hits and suddenly i'm sitting

1569
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:03,280
you know on a house in a river in

1570
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:05,440
illinois with nothing to do

1571
00:53:10,549 --> 00:53:08,800
um and that experiment

1572
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:10,559
comes to mind and i think to myself you

1573
00:53:15,030 --> 00:53:13,920
know what what the i got i have a studio

1574
00:53:16,390 --> 00:53:15,040
in the house here

1575
00:53:18,150 --> 00:53:16,400
you know more or less in all of my

1576
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:18,160
houses or studio because we generate so

1577
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:19,520
much content

1578
00:53:22,790 --> 00:53:22,160
so i'm like i've got a studio here i can

1579
00:53:25,190 --> 00:53:22,800
shoot

1580
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:25,200
new videos of instructions and stuff

1581
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:26,319
like that

1582
00:53:31,990 --> 00:53:29,359
um you know let's what the hell

1583
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:32,000
i'm literally like practically one day i

1584
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:33,520
just woke up and thought i'm going to

1585
00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:34,800
send an email

1586
00:53:38,549 --> 00:53:36,480
out to our list and i'm going to see if

1587
00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:38,559
anybody signs up for this if anybody is

1588
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:39,440
interested in this

1589
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:40,480
and i'm just going to be totally

1590
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:42,160
transparent i said exactly what i just

1591
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:43,200
said to you

1592
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:45,359
you know we're gonna basically just

1593
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:47,359
experiment these methods i have no idea

1594
00:53:50,470 --> 00:53:48,240
if it will work

1595
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:50,480
i'm sure some people will transition it

1596
00:53:55,270 --> 00:53:52,240
could be almost no one it could be a lot

1597
00:53:57,030 --> 00:53:55,280
of people i have no idea we have no data

1598
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,040
on this you know but if you want to

1599
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:59,280
participate in this pilot

1600
00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:00,640
you're welcome to come and participate

1601
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:03,359
in this pilot we priced it at 120 bucks

1602
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:05,359
because i've always done pilots that way

1603
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:06,400
you know like

1604
00:54:11,030 --> 00:54:09,280
120 bucks is when i first did the first

1605
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:11,040
finders course i think it was like 150

1606
00:54:14,710 --> 00:54:12,720
bucks or something like that i charge

1607
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:14,720
uh just to get the people who are

1608
00:54:17,349 --> 00:54:16,079
serious and who might actually go all

1609
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:17,359
the way through the protocol you know if

1610
00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:19,040
you make something free they drop out in

1611
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:20,319
the first week right

1612
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:22,559
but if you find that bare minimum

1613
00:54:25,109 --> 00:54:24,480
threshold you can at least pull people

1614
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:25,119
through

1615
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:28,400
the program to get decent statistics and

1616
00:54:31,829 --> 00:54:29,520
all that on it

1617
00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:31,839
um and i remember when i was first doing

1618
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:33,280
the finders course protocol i was

1619
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:34,960
thinking to myself

1620
00:54:41,510 --> 00:54:38,480
you know 150 bucks is fair it's like

1621
00:54:43,829 --> 00:54:41,520
it's not much to pay if we're successful

1622
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:43,839
and it's not much to pay if we wind up

1623
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:46,000
making people insane

1624
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:48,240
you know we had no idea right if this

1625
00:54:51,910 --> 00:54:49,200
was gonna like

1626
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:51,920
totally mess people up or if they were

1627
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:54,000
gonna have you know great outcomes or no

1628
00:54:56,230 --> 00:54:54,799
outcome or

1629
00:54:59,030 --> 00:54:56,240
you know whatever else and so i didn't

1630
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,040
want to so i follow that same sort of

1631
00:55:02,789 --> 00:55:01,119
idea with all of our pilots right so i

1632
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:02,799
charged 120 bucks

1633
00:55:09,190 --> 00:55:06,319
and unbelievable to me uh

1634
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:09,200
hundreds of people signed up at the end

1635
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:11,200
by the end over 800 people had signed up

1636
00:55:14,069 --> 00:55:12,640
we couldn't take 800 people into an

1637
00:55:15,510 --> 00:55:14,079
experiment so by the end we were just

1638
00:55:16,789 --> 00:55:15,520
being nice and letting people come in

1639
00:55:22,230 --> 00:55:16,799
and take the class

1640
00:55:25,750 --> 00:55:24,069
you know so what kind of came out of

1641
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:25,760
this coveted period that is really

1642
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:27,280
interesting to me

1643
00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:30,880
is a six-week protocol

1644
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:34,079
and out of that the transition rate

1645
00:55:40,950 --> 00:55:37,920
looks like it's 64-65

1646
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:40,960
which is astonishing if you think about

1647
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:43,119
it you know if you have a situation

1648
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:43,680
where

1649
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:45,520
you can go through a four-month program

1650
00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:46,720
with a 70

1651
00:55:50,789 --> 00:55:49,040
chance of success or you can go through

1652
00:55:54,870 --> 00:55:50,799
a six-week program

1653
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:54,880
with a 64-65 chance of success

1654
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:57,520
that to me is revolutionary now for 120

1655
00:56:00,630 --> 00:55:59,359
bucks we subsidize the crap out of that

1656
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:00,640
right i mean you can't

1657
00:56:04,630 --> 00:56:02,480
it's not like a sustainable thing that

1658
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:04,640
you can just drive ads to and keep in

1659
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:06,160
the marketplace or whatever else

1660
00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:09,200
and so what i did was i gave the people

1661
00:56:12,789 --> 00:56:10,559
that went through it

1662
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:12,799
the opportunity to participate i said

1663
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:14,240
listen if you want this thing to stay

1664
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:15,599
alive we can't afford it

1665
00:56:18,870 --> 00:56:17,119
so we're gonna have to you know we could

1666
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:18,880
charge a thousand bucks for this

1667
00:56:23,030 --> 00:56:21,839
and it's a sustainable deal right and so

1668
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:23,040
one route is we can

1669
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:24,720
we can just charge a thousand bucks for

1670
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:26,960
this another route is we cannot do it

1671
00:56:30,069 --> 00:56:28,799
again and we can just write up the data

1672
00:56:32,549 --> 00:56:30,079
you know and it can be a great

1673
00:56:34,069 --> 00:56:32,559
experiment and the third route is you as

1674
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:34,079
the people who went through this can

1675
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:35,680
keep this thing alive

1676
00:56:41,109 --> 00:56:38,079
as volunteers and we can you know

1677
00:56:44,309 --> 00:56:41,119
continue to make it broadly accessible

1678
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:44,319
to a much wider range of people and we

1679
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:44,720
had

1680
00:56:49,349 --> 00:56:47,359
over a hundred people that went through

1681
00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:49,359
the program like 150 people

1682
00:56:53,190 --> 00:56:52,000
volunteer to keep this thing alive and

1683
00:56:54,549 --> 00:56:53,200
they're doing all kinds of things

1684
00:56:56,549 --> 00:56:54,559
there's a marketing team

1685
00:56:58,309 --> 00:56:56,559
and there's a course implementation team

1686
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:58,319
and there's a course support team

1687
00:57:01,750 --> 00:56:59,920
that have really sort of come together

1688
00:57:04,069 --> 00:57:01,760
and that for me as someone who's been

1689
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:04,079
under attack for years

1690
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,520
you know in our work um

1691
00:57:11,349 --> 00:57:09,440
there's no way for me to describe how

1692
00:57:14,390 --> 00:57:11,359
heartful it is

1693
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:14,400
to see um you know these people

1694
00:57:18,309 --> 00:57:17,280
coming together to make this a

1695
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:18,319
possibility i mean

1696
00:57:21,910 --> 00:57:20,000
it's felt like sort of us against the

1697
00:57:24,870 --> 00:57:21,920
world for a long time

1698
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:24,880
in these experiments you know initially

1699
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:26,160
against the academic

1700
00:57:29,510 --> 00:57:27,760
world and of course over the years and

1701
00:57:31,109 --> 00:57:29,520
endless conference presentations and

1702
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:31,119
endless interactions with colleagues and

1703
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,480
stuff you know that's

1704
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:34,319
finally you know not a hostile

1705
00:57:39,349 --> 00:57:36,720
environment for us anymore at this point

1706
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:39,359
but for a long time it was you know the

1707
00:57:42,390 --> 00:57:40,960
scientists just didn't feel like this

1708
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,400
was something that could be studied it

1709
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:44,720
sounded too mystical it sounded too

1710
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:46,720
magical it sounded like it was a bunch

1711
00:57:49,670 --> 00:57:48,480
of people that were crazy frankly

1712
00:57:51,109 --> 00:57:49,680
you know that were experiencing

1713
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:51,119
psychopathology or whatever they were

1714
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:52,559
like that's just a waste of time to

1715
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:53,599
study

1716
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:55,440
uh and so it took us years fighting

1717
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:56,640
those battles

1718
00:57:59,670 --> 00:57:58,000
and then you know all of the

1719
00:58:02,390 --> 00:57:59,680
traditionalists that

1720
00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:02,400
you know believe that jesus is the only

1721
00:58:06,549 --> 00:58:03,839
way to experience this

1722
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,559
or you know that you the only valid

1723
00:58:10,470 --> 00:58:08,400
experience is you're sitting in some

1724
00:58:11,670 --> 00:58:10,480
exotic meditation position and there's a

1725
00:58:13,430 --> 00:58:11,680
blue light that

1726
00:58:15,270 --> 00:58:13,440
starts in the far part of your visual

1727
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:15,280
field and moves then if you haven't had

1728
00:58:18,789 --> 00:58:16,960
that experience then you're not in

1729
00:58:21,030 --> 00:58:18,799
fundamental well-being or whatever right

1730
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:21,040
i mean it's been a battle against those

1731
00:58:24,549 --> 00:58:21,599
folks

1732
00:58:25,030 --> 00:58:24,559
you know for all of this time um and so

1733
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:25,040
it's

1734
00:58:31,910 --> 00:58:28,400
blessing

1735
00:58:34,470 --> 00:58:31,920
to have this first of all

1736
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:34,480
right before 50 what are the odds right

1737
00:58:36,789 --> 00:58:34,960
i mean

1738
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,799
there's got to be some unconscious goal

1739
00:58:39,190 --> 00:58:38,480
programming intention thing happening

1740
00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:39,200
there

1741
00:58:42,630 --> 00:58:41,680
um but right before 50 to have this

1742
00:58:44,870 --> 00:58:42,640
thing that can

1743
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:44,880
affect and can be in a lot more people's

1744
00:58:48,069 --> 00:58:46,720
lives and then to have the people that

1745
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:48,079
went through it initially

1746
00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:51,119
be so like totally on board even and

1747
00:58:53,270 --> 00:58:51,760
they're the

1748
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,280
the cross spectrum there's the

1749
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:54,799
scientists in there

1750
00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:57,760
there's the hardcore buddhists in there

1751
00:59:01,430 --> 00:58:59,440
and there's ordinary people in there and

1752
00:59:03,270 --> 00:59:01,440
they're all coming together to make this

1753
00:59:05,349 --> 00:59:03,280
a reality for i think what it'll

1754
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:05,359
probably be millions more people

1755
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:08,319
that could take advantage okay that's

1756
00:59:11,670 --> 00:59:09,359
incredible to me

1757
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,680
yeah yeah no that's that's great so

1758
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:13,200
we're talking about finders course

1759
00:59:16,230 --> 00:59:15,760
2.0 if you will and that was kind of a

1760
00:59:17,910 --> 00:59:16,240
great

1761
00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:17,920
summary yeah it's called 45 days to

1762
00:59:21,589 --> 00:59:19,680
awakening challenge right now but yeah

1763
00:59:25,270 --> 00:59:21,599
oh man i'm glad you put such a

1764
00:59:28,710 --> 00:59:26,950
i didn't think anybody would sign up for

1765
00:59:30,630 --> 00:59:28,720
it initially i was like i wonder if like

1766
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:30,640
i can get a small group of like six or

1767
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:32,160
ten people to do this

1768
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:34,319
i was here when hundreds of people

1769
00:59:37,190 --> 00:59:35,280
started to sign up

1770
00:59:38,630 --> 00:59:37,200
the things i i want to do right there

1771
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:38,640
because i mean

1772
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:41,839
i i don't want to kind of push the

1773
00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,920
i certainly don't want to push what

1774
00:59:47,829 --> 00:59:45,119
you're doing i don't know

1775
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:47,839
i'm just i'm just doing what anyone

1776
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:48,319
would do

1777
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:50,720
is just kind of looking at the looking

1778
00:59:53,910 --> 00:59:51,839
at the numbers

1779
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,920
looking at the detractors like i tell

1780
00:59:57,990 --> 00:59:55,280
people one of the first things i always

1781
01:00:01,109 --> 00:59:58,000
do when i have a guest on is i type in

1782
01:00:05,190 --> 01:00:01,119
jeffrey martin fraud jeffrey martin

1783
01:00:07,349 --> 01:00:05,200
scam jeffrey martin khan you know so

1784
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:07,359
this is this is what i do because an

1785
01:00:11,190 --> 01:00:09,359
interesting habit

1786
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:11,200
you have to you have to because i

1787
01:00:14,470 --> 01:00:12,559
probably don't want to type any of those

1788
01:00:18,309 --> 01:00:14,480
things into google do i

1789
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:18,319
well let me tell you you kind of do

1790
01:00:21,910 --> 01:00:21,119
because in a lot of ways it's it's

1791
01:00:24,390 --> 01:00:21,920
encouraging

1792
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:24,400
i mean i was able to sort through that

1793
01:00:28,710 --> 01:00:26,400
relatively quickly you know and people

1794
01:00:30,710 --> 01:00:28,720
just say stuff that like well i have to

1795
01:00:32,549 --> 01:00:30,720
be anonymous here because wait a minute

1796
01:00:34,950 --> 01:00:32,559
why do you have to be anonymous who are

1797
01:00:36,549 --> 01:00:34,960
you oh well because i signed a net

1798
01:00:38,789 --> 01:00:36,559
non-disclosure agreement

1799
01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:38,799
wait a minute i've talked to i've talked

1800
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:40,880
to jeffrey martin i know he shares this

1801
01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:41,440
stuff

1802
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:43,760
he's not gonna sue you because you give

1803
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:45,359
him a bad review that's

1804
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:47,680
total and then when you even

1805
01:00:51,910 --> 01:00:50,160
dig in further what people are saying

1806
01:00:53,430 --> 01:00:51,920
on the negative front well i didn't

1807
01:00:54,789 --> 01:00:53,440
finish the course and it's like

1808
01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:54,799
okay well you didn't finish of course

1809
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:56,640
that's your prerogative but do you

1810
01:01:00,470 --> 01:00:57,839
really want to

1811
01:01:01,990 --> 01:01:00,480
evaluate the course on somebody so i

1812
01:01:04,710 --> 01:01:02,000
think the criticisms

1813
01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:04,720
that i found and i searched you know

1814
01:01:07,349 --> 01:01:05,440
just

1815
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:07,359
pretty quickly fell away with the kind

1816
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:08,880
of stuff you can see on any youtube

1817
01:01:11,750 --> 01:01:10,720
video where you got haters on there you

1818
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:11,760
know instantly

1819
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:13,920
trying to put the thing down so but so

1820
01:01:16,549 --> 01:01:16,160
that's not my role here my role is not

1821
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:16,559
to

1822
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:19,839
you know so people know i signed up for

1823
01:01:24,069 --> 01:01:22,240
your course and i didn't complete the

1824
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:24,079
courses way back in the day and it was

1825
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:25,200
mainly just because

1826
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:27,440
it was kind of tedious in terms of some

1827
01:01:30,870 --> 01:01:29,280
of the data that you're trying to

1828
01:01:33,510 --> 01:01:30,880
collect but

1829
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:33,520
oh yeah i was really especially back in

1830
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:34,079
the day

1831
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:36,319
we had like 10 hours of measures that we

1832
01:01:38,710 --> 01:01:37,920
would make people fill out and stuff it

1833
01:01:40,230 --> 01:01:38,720
was brutal well

1834
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:40,240
i was impressed with with what you were

1835
01:01:45,990 --> 01:01:42,000
doing and i i got close enough

1836
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:46,000
to it to say that i i have to accept

1837
01:01:49,750 --> 01:01:48,400
the numbers that he's he's putting out

1838
01:01:50,870 --> 01:01:49,760
there but what i really want to focus on

1839
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:50,880
because i think people have these

1840
01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:52,480
lingering thoughts in the back of their

1841
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:53,040
mind

1842
01:01:56,470 --> 01:01:54,960
and one of the thoughts is certainly

1843
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:56,480
about the money

1844
01:02:01,510 --> 01:01:59,520
so we can talk about you know

1845
01:02:03,029 --> 01:02:01,520
how you know a couple million dollars

1846
01:02:04,950 --> 01:02:03,039
that you would make is not really that

1847
01:02:06,230 --> 01:02:04,960
much money or how you're really losing

1848
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:06,240
money and all the rest

1849
01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:08,720
people can't hear that all they hear is

1850
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:10,160
the guy wants 2 500

1851
01:02:13,430 --> 01:02:12,160
for the class and that seems like a lot

1852
01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:13,440
of money so

1853
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:15,599
i i i do think it's worthwhile and i

1854
01:02:17,910 --> 01:02:16,559
don't want to drill on this point

1855
01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:17,920
because it sounds like i'm

1856
01:02:21,109 --> 01:02:19,440
you know chilling for the course or

1857
01:02:24,390 --> 01:02:21,119
something

1858
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:24,400
there are costs associated with doing

1859
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:25,920
something like this

1860
01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:27,839
in the way that you do it and in

1861
01:02:30,950 --> 01:02:30,160
particular kind of supporting these

1862
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:30,960
groups

1863
01:02:35,109 --> 01:02:33,359
as they go through it so there are some

1864
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:35,119
costs baked into that

1865
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:36,880
and i want you to just really briefly

1866
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:38,400
explain to people

1867
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:41,440
why the volunteer model that you're

1868
01:02:46,470 --> 01:02:43,760
moving towards

1869
01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:46,480
will one allow you to achieve hopefully

1870
01:02:52,150 --> 01:02:48,480
good results for people

1871
01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:52,160
but number two it won't it will

1872
01:02:59,029 --> 01:02:55,359
unburden you from some of these costs

1873
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:59,039
yeah yeah for sure you know there

1874
01:03:02,789 --> 01:03:01,119
part of it is that it's a research

1875
01:03:05,270 --> 01:03:02,799
program and it's been a research program

1876
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:05,280
for so long and it's got

1877
01:03:12,230 --> 01:03:08,880
a staff of research people it's not like

1878
01:03:15,270 --> 01:03:12,240
one guy running a class you know

1879
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:15,280
where that can have lower costs

1880
01:03:18,390 --> 01:03:17,280
associated with it if you're like just

1881
01:03:22,230 --> 01:03:18,400
somebody that sits there

1882
01:03:24,950 --> 01:03:22,240
makes a video and you know advertises it

1883
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:24,960
on facebook or something like that

1884
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:27,359
so we estimate that of the twenty five

1885
01:03:30,309 --> 01:03:28,960
hundred dollars

1886
01:03:32,549 --> 01:03:30,319
which was the traditional price of the

1887
01:03:33,990 --> 01:03:32,559
finders course it's 3 000 right now and

1888
01:03:35,589 --> 01:03:34,000
that's because we've started to include

1889
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:35,599
the explorers course with it

1890
01:03:39,430 --> 01:03:37,520
we just think that too many people

1891
01:03:40,470 --> 01:03:39,440
didn't follow up with the explorers

1892
01:03:42,549 --> 01:03:40,480
course and we had

1893
01:03:44,069 --> 01:03:42,559
kind of ethical problems with that

1894
01:03:44,789 --> 01:03:44,079
because we really feel like you need the

1895
01:03:47,910 --> 01:03:44,799
information

1896
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:47,920
about you know transitioning how how

1897
01:03:51,430 --> 01:03:49,200
your life changes

1898
01:03:52,470 --> 01:03:51,440
and you know sort of best practices and

1899
01:03:53,829 --> 01:03:52,480
and things like that

1900
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:53,839
and so that was something we used to

1901
01:03:56,230 --> 01:03:55,680
sell separately for like 1200 bucks or

1902
01:04:00,150 --> 01:03:56,240
so

1903
01:04:01,510 --> 01:04:00,160
took almost none of our time provided

1904
01:04:03,910 --> 01:04:01,520
the same information in fact

1905
01:04:04,870 --> 01:04:03,920
500 bucks on uh so that we could still

1906
01:04:07,750 --> 01:04:04,880
support it

1907
01:04:09,029 --> 01:04:07,760
um and basically bundled it with the

1908
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:09,039
finders course

1909
01:04:13,910 --> 01:04:12,960
um so the you know i think if you are

1910
01:04:18,710 --> 01:04:13,920
just doing

1911
01:04:21,190 --> 01:04:18,720
courses um then that's

1912
01:04:22,549 --> 01:04:21,200
you know we estimated that the the cost

1913
01:04:24,390 --> 01:04:22,559
to market

1914
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:24,400
at a sustainable level not a mar not a

1915
01:04:25,990 --> 01:04:25,680
level where you would be making a lot of

1916
01:04:27,750 --> 01:04:26,000
money

1917
01:04:29,589 --> 01:04:27,760
or something but just at a sustainable

1918
01:04:31,750 --> 01:04:29,599
level uh what would be about

1919
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:31,760
half of that twenty five hundred dollars

1920
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:33,920
in terms of facebook ad costs

1921
01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:36,880
or youtube ad costs uh and stuff like

1922
01:04:40,309 --> 01:04:38,640
that now the times when we've advertised

1923
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:40,319
which we don't do very often

1924
01:04:45,029 --> 01:04:42,960
but we have done usually we do that to

1925
01:04:46,710 --> 01:04:45,039
increase our demographics and so we do

1926
01:04:48,069 --> 01:04:46,720
that to broaden our demographics and

1927
01:04:49,349 --> 01:04:48,079
traditionally what we've done is we've

1928
01:04:52,470 --> 01:04:49,359
been willing to spend

1929
01:04:53,349 --> 01:04:52,480
up to the entire cost of acquiring

1930
01:04:56,789 --> 01:04:53,359
someone

1931
01:04:59,430 --> 01:04:56,799
um in order to um

1932
01:05:01,109 --> 01:04:59,440
you know to get more people in at a

1933
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:01,119
broader range of demographics and then

1934
01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:02,400
we just sort of

1935
01:05:05,589 --> 01:05:04,240
take money from other places other

1936
01:05:06,870 --> 01:05:05,599
registrants that didn't come through

1937
01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:06,880
advertising that came through word of

1938
01:05:10,470 --> 01:05:08,000
mouth or something like that

1939
01:05:11,670 --> 01:05:10,480
other research funds that we've got and

1940
01:05:14,069 --> 01:05:11,680
so it's kind of from our

1941
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:14,079
it's not a very good answer again it's

1942
01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:14,880
complicated

1943
01:05:17,990 --> 01:05:16,079
you know our world is just very

1944
01:05:18,789 --> 01:05:18,000
complicated we've got researchers that

1945
01:05:20,549 --> 01:05:18,799
we pay for

1946
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:20,559
we've got the support people that we pay

1947
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:22,400
for

1948
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:24,480
the finders course has almost always

1949
01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:31,029
i'd say always been supported by

1950
01:05:37,910 --> 01:05:34,799
people that were associated with the lab

1951
01:05:39,750 --> 01:05:37,920
and so you know there's only so many

1952
01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:39,760
people in the world that can really

1953
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:42,160
answer some of the difficult questions

1954
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:43,200
that come in

1955
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:44,960
traditionally had a very small number of

1956
01:05:48,470 --> 01:05:46,960
people you know that we allowed into

1957
01:05:50,309 --> 01:05:48,480
each cohort i mean we're not running

1958
01:05:51,910 --> 01:05:50,319
hundreds of people through each cohort

1959
01:05:54,230 --> 01:05:51,920
in the finders course i mean lots of

1960
01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:54,240
times our cohorts are 20 25 people

1961
01:05:59,430 --> 01:05:57,839
50 people we always do scholarships we

1962
01:06:01,349 --> 01:05:59,440
try to have

1963
01:06:03,109 --> 01:06:01,359
lately we've tried to have about 50 of

1964
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:03,119
the seats be scholarships and so that

1965
01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:04,400
means that you've got

1966
01:06:08,630 --> 01:06:07,280
you know maybe 20 people that are paying

1967
01:06:10,470 --> 01:06:08,640
the 3 000

1968
01:06:11,670 --> 01:06:10,480
and then you've got another 20 people

1969
01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:11,680
who are paying

1970
01:06:16,710 --> 01:06:14,240
you know often greatly reduced fees and

1971
01:06:19,510 --> 01:06:16,720
we have to do that to keep the data

1972
01:06:20,789 --> 01:06:19,520
demographically broad so i just wanted

1973
01:06:22,470 --> 01:06:20,799
to mention that i want to get that out

1974
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:22,480
front because i know it always comes up

1975
01:06:25,349 --> 01:06:23,280
for people

1976
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:25,359
and and i just want them to understand

1977
01:06:28,390 --> 01:06:26,640
on a one

1978
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:28,400
just run those numbers that you just did

1979
01:06:31,829 --> 01:06:29,760
there right this is not

1980
01:06:33,109 --> 01:06:31,839
like people should not do this if they

1981
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:33,119
want to make money

1982
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:35,039
let me just if there's somebody out

1983
01:06:39,029 --> 01:06:36,640
there who's thinking to themselves

1984
01:06:39,670 --> 01:06:39,039
that looks like a great business they

1985
01:06:44,069 --> 01:06:39,680
should just

1986
01:06:46,630 --> 01:06:44,079
immediately stop that go for it

1987
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:46,640
as someone who built companies prior to

1988
01:06:49,829 --> 01:06:47,359
this right

1989
01:06:51,750 --> 01:06:49,839
i can attest this is not a good business

1990
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:51,760
this is not a business you want to be in

1991
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:53,200
this is not something you should be

1992
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:54,960
thinking about if you want to have

1993
01:06:59,029 --> 01:06:58,160
a you know a high living lifestyle with

1994
01:07:02,230 --> 01:06:59,039
good income

1995
01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:02,240
it's just the wrong direction to go

1996
01:07:06,390 --> 01:07:04,319
okay so jeffrey here's another kind of

1997
01:07:09,670 --> 01:07:06,400
concern let me just throw this out there

1998
01:07:13,190 --> 01:07:09,680
so you move to this new model which

1999
01:07:15,910 --> 01:07:13,200
allows you to broaden open up the

2000
01:07:16,789 --> 01:07:15,920
open up the funnel a little yeah what

2001
01:07:18,870 --> 01:07:16,799
about the cult

2002
01:07:20,230 --> 01:07:18,880
thing because i do have to throw that

2003
01:07:23,109 --> 01:07:20,240
out there right so

2004
01:07:23,910 --> 01:07:23,119
every one of almost everyone that's too

2005
01:07:25,670 --> 01:07:23,920
much but

2006
01:07:27,430 --> 01:07:25,680
so many of these movements you know i

2007
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:27,440
just spoke with you know we're talking

2008
01:07:31,270 --> 01:07:29,599
about our mutual friend rick archer from

2009
01:07:34,230 --> 01:07:31,280
good at the gas pump who does a

2010
01:07:36,390 --> 01:07:34,240
fantastic job of surveying so many

2011
01:07:38,789 --> 01:07:36,400
people who are offering

2012
01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:38,799
absolutely trainings and stuff like that

2013
01:07:43,349 --> 01:07:39,760
i don't see

2014
01:07:46,630 --> 01:07:43,359
anyone who has any kind of scientific

2015
01:07:48,789 --> 01:07:46,640
basis for supporting their claims about

2016
01:07:49,349 --> 01:07:48,799
how efficacious they are anywhere close

2017
01:07:50,870 --> 01:07:49,359
to what

2018
01:07:52,470 --> 01:07:50,880
you have but that's neither here nor

2019
01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:52,480
there people are allowed to go out there

2020
01:07:55,589 --> 01:07:53,200
and say hey

2021
01:07:57,109 --> 01:07:55,599
this works for me and it works for my

2022
01:07:58,870 --> 01:07:57,119
people that come to my training

2023
01:08:00,710 --> 01:07:58,880
why don't you give it a try and if

2024
01:08:03,750 --> 01:08:00,720
you're so inclined and you like

2025
01:08:05,109 --> 01:08:03,760
the cut of their jib then you know go

2026
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,119
for it kind of thing

2027
01:08:08,230 --> 01:08:07,200
i kind of like somebody who has some

2028
01:08:11,349 --> 01:08:08,240
science behind

2029
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:11,359
it that i can kind of point to and say

2030
01:08:14,950 --> 01:08:12,160
well

2031
01:08:15,750 --> 01:08:14,960
maybe i have more of a chance of of

2032
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:15,760
getting there

2033
01:08:20,550 --> 01:08:17,679
but that's kind of neither here nor

2034
01:08:22,390 --> 01:08:20,560
there the the real point is

2035
01:08:23,990 --> 01:08:22,400
if someone's making this decision one of

2036
01:08:27,590 --> 01:08:24,000
the things they do have to

2037
01:08:29,189 --> 01:08:27,600
be concerned about is the cult thing

2038
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:29,199
and i think it's so funny because again

2039
01:08:34,149 --> 01:08:30,960
in talking to rick i mean rick

2040
01:08:36,709 --> 01:08:34,159
is these aren't exactly his words

2041
01:08:39,110 --> 01:08:36,719
but rick is somewhat of a cult survivor

2042
01:08:41,590 --> 01:08:39,120
in that he went through the tm movement

2043
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:41,600
for the longest time i think anyone who

2044
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:42,400
really looks

2045
01:08:46,789 --> 01:08:44,480
under the hood of the tn movement at the

2046
01:08:49,749 --> 01:08:46,799
end it really looked

2047
01:08:50,870 --> 01:08:49,759
so much like a cult the guy's you know

2048
01:08:53,510 --> 01:08:50,880
locked up alone

2049
01:08:54,229 --> 01:08:53,520
doesn't see anybody is having sexual

2050
01:08:57,510 --> 01:08:54,239
relations

2051
01:08:59,669 --> 01:08:57,520
telling everyone else to be celibate

2052
01:09:02,149 --> 01:08:59,679
he's fooling around with the money you

2053
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:02,159
know i mean it's just a lot of very

2054
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:05,199
shaky shady things and we've seen that

2055
01:09:11,349 --> 01:09:07,920
repeated over and over and over again

2056
01:09:12,630 --> 01:09:11,359
in all these spiritual circles so

2057
01:09:14,550 --> 01:09:12,640
you know one of the questions i asked

2058
01:09:19,030 --> 01:09:14,560
you in an email and i'll ask it

2059
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:19,040
here is i see

2060
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:20,400
kind of where you've built some

2061
01:09:25,510 --> 01:09:22,480
firewalls to prevent

2062
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:25,520
against it moving in that direction

2063
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:27,359
you know it's always offensive to me

2064
01:09:30,309 --> 01:09:28,719
when i'm doing an interview like this

2065
01:09:31,030 --> 01:09:30,319
and someone doesn't bow to me at the

2066
01:09:32,789 --> 01:09:31,040
beginning of it

2067
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:32,799
i don't know if we can go back and put

2068
01:09:35,829 --> 01:09:34,640
that in but that would make me so much

2069
01:09:37,430 --> 01:09:35,839
more comfortable

2070
01:09:39,110 --> 01:09:37,440
with this interview today just to just

2071
01:09:39,990 --> 01:09:39,120
to let you know i don't know if you have

2072
01:09:41,990 --> 01:09:40,000
that

2073
01:09:43,590 --> 01:09:42,000
with all of your guests it could just be

2074
01:09:45,910 --> 01:09:43,600
me and where i'm coming from after all

2075
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:45,920
these years

2076
01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:48,960
so you're right one of my great concerns

2077
01:09:54,310 --> 01:09:52,400
really was that um people would want to

2078
01:09:58,950 --> 01:09:54,320
put me at the center

2079
01:10:01,669 --> 01:09:58,960
of this um because to me it's

2080
01:10:02,390 --> 01:10:01,679
you know it's about the data and it's

2081
01:10:04,870 --> 01:10:02,400
about

2082
01:10:07,830 --> 01:10:04,880
sort of what science shows us and what

2083
01:10:09,669 --> 01:10:07,840
science reveals it's not about

2084
01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:09,679
um the person that really collects i

2085
01:10:12,390 --> 01:10:10,880
mean sometimes you have somebody like an

2086
01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:12,400
einstein who just kind of becomes a

2087
01:10:15,910 --> 01:10:14,159
legendary figure or

2088
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:15,920
you know something like that and there's

2089
01:10:19,270 --> 01:10:18,000
kind of a cult of einstein or whatever

2090
01:10:21,990 --> 01:10:19,280
else but at the end it was

2091
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:22,000
this work and the science that stands

2092
01:10:24,390 --> 01:10:22,400
either

2093
01:10:26,229 --> 01:10:24,400
independent from him in terms of being

2094
01:10:27,669 --> 01:10:26,239
able to be validated and what not by

2095
01:10:30,149 --> 01:10:27,679
others or not or

2096
01:10:30,790 --> 01:10:30,159
whatever else and so yeah you're right i

2097
01:10:32,790 --> 01:10:30,800
mean i

2098
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:32,800
you know i i at the beginning it wasn't

2099
01:10:35,189 --> 01:10:34,480
a thought because i was doing it for my

2100
01:10:37,910 --> 01:10:35,199
own well-being

2101
01:10:39,110 --> 01:10:37,920
right and then as i started to think as

2102
01:10:41,110 --> 01:10:39,120
once i got there

2103
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:41,120
and i really started to realize okay

2104
01:10:43,669 --> 01:10:42,159
this is something that should be

2105
01:10:45,510 --> 01:10:43,679
available to there's all these

2106
01:10:46,870 --> 01:10:45,520
poor seekers out there that are beating

2107
01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:46,880
their heads against the wall

2108
01:10:49,910 --> 01:10:48,239
and they're constantly communicating

2109
01:10:50,550 --> 01:10:49,920
with me about how frustrating you know

2110
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:50,560
their

2111
01:10:56,550 --> 01:10:54,719
really kind of very frustrating period

2112
01:10:58,149 --> 01:10:56,560
for me personally where i was constantly

2113
01:10:59,750 --> 01:10:58,159
getting emails from seekers because

2114
01:11:01,910 --> 01:10:59,760
stuff doesn't work for them right

2115
01:11:03,430 --> 01:11:01,920
and they would see some talk that i gave

2116
01:11:04,950 --> 01:11:03,440
or run across some powerpoint slides

2117
01:11:06,390 --> 01:11:04,960
that i put online from some academic

2118
01:11:08,070 --> 01:11:06,400
talk or something and they would be like

2119
01:11:10,470 --> 01:11:08,080
this guy must have the answers and this

2120
01:11:11,990 --> 01:11:10,480
was way before the finders course

2121
01:11:13,750 --> 01:11:12,000
and so they would contact me and i would

2122
01:11:15,270 --> 01:11:13,760
have nothing for them really like i

2123
01:11:15,990 --> 01:11:15,280
would just have nothing for them i would

2124
01:11:18,229 --> 01:11:16,000
be like well here are the

2125
01:11:19,990 --> 01:11:18,239
classifications of the experience and

2126
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:20,000
like they wanted that they wanted to get

2127
01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:22,000
there right and they were just so

2128
01:11:26,390 --> 01:11:24,800
frustrated um and so that's i think

2129
01:11:29,510 --> 01:11:26,400
where a lot of my moral sort of

2130
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:29,520
impetus comes from around this and and

2131
01:11:33,110 --> 01:11:31,280
you know i was interviewing a lot of

2132
01:11:34,229 --> 01:11:33,120
these spiritual teachers obviously for a

2133
01:11:35,910 --> 01:11:34,239
long time

2134
01:11:38,390 --> 01:11:35,920
um and i could just see that that was

2135
01:11:40,310 --> 01:11:38,400
not a model that i wanted to replicate

2136
01:11:41,990 --> 01:11:40,320
hey i didn't really want their lives

2137
01:11:43,990 --> 01:11:42,000
like it just didn't seem like

2138
01:11:45,669 --> 01:11:44,000
their lives were all that awesome

2139
01:11:46,470 --> 01:11:45,679
frankly you know in the same sense that

2140
01:11:48,390 --> 01:11:46,480
like

2141
01:11:50,390 --> 01:11:48,400
you know i don't really it's not my

2142
01:11:53,990 --> 01:11:50,400
dream to return

2143
01:11:56,229 --> 01:11:54,000
to the academic world as like a chair

2144
01:11:57,830 --> 01:11:56,239
professor in some department like that's

2145
01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:57,840
a crappy life

2146
01:12:00,950 --> 01:12:00,080
in many ways right like i'm glad i dip

2147
01:12:02,630 --> 01:12:00,960
my toe in that

2148
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:02,640
i'm grateful for the years that i had at

2149
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:04,800
places like hong kong polytechnic and

2150
01:12:10,149 --> 01:12:07,040
sofia university

2151
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:10,159
and places like that you know but geez

2152
01:12:13,910 --> 01:12:12,000
like when i compare that to how awesome

2153
01:12:15,510 --> 01:12:13,920
it was to run companies before

2154
01:12:17,270 --> 01:12:15,520
this period of time or something like

2155
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:17,280
this is a massive difference in quality

2156
01:12:21,030 --> 01:12:18,880
of life right

2157
01:12:23,110 --> 01:12:21,040
and so i looked at their lives and i

2158
01:12:25,350 --> 01:12:23,120
thought okay i don't want your life

2159
01:12:26,470 --> 01:12:25,360
um you know i've got a stage on the

2160
01:12:29,270 --> 01:12:26,480
stage

2161
01:12:30,709 --> 01:12:29,280
don't put me yeah people i'm like i

2162
01:12:32,149 --> 01:12:30,719
gotta make sure people don't put me at

2163
01:12:34,550 --> 01:12:32,159
the center of this thing

2164
01:12:35,270 --> 01:12:34,560
uh and i went a little too far with that

2165
01:12:39,189 --> 01:12:35,280
actually

2166
01:12:40,390 --> 01:12:39,199
um and so when i first did the explorers

2167
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:40,400
course

2168
01:12:44,390 --> 01:12:42,480
one of the things that i did was i set

2169
01:12:47,750 --> 01:12:44,400
up a community for it

2170
01:12:51,110 --> 01:12:47,760
and i totally completely kept myself

2171
01:12:53,669 --> 01:12:51,120
out of that community and that community

2172
01:12:56,550 --> 01:12:53,679
just could totally developed on its own

2173
01:12:58,149 --> 01:12:56,560
um so there was like this group of

2174
01:13:00,470 --> 01:12:58,159
alumni if you will of sort of our

2175
01:13:03,189 --> 01:13:00,480
programs that just completely

2176
01:13:05,270 --> 01:13:03,199
you know developed independently of me

2177
01:13:07,350 --> 01:13:05,280
and i did it because of this guru

2178
01:13:09,110 --> 01:13:07,360
concern because i knew that any

2179
01:13:10,470 --> 01:13:09,120
conversation that i was in i was going

2180
01:13:12,390 --> 01:13:10,480
to get deference

2181
01:13:13,910 --> 01:13:12,400
uh you know from those individuals in

2182
01:13:14,390 --> 01:13:13,920
all likelihood and that it was going to

2183
01:13:17,430 --> 01:13:14,400
sort of

2184
01:13:18,470 --> 01:13:17,440
shape the community that that they could

2185
01:13:20,870 --> 01:13:18,480
have

2186
01:13:22,070 --> 01:13:20,880
um and so now years later in the

2187
01:13:23,910 --> 01:13:22,080
exemplar program

2188
01:13:26,310 --> 01:13:23,920
i've i've learned that that wasn't

2189
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:26,320
necessarily ideal that a lot of the

2190
01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:27,600
a lot of the knowledge that we have

2191
01:13:30,550 --> 01:13:29,120
accumulated over the years it's

2192
01:13:32,310 --> 01:13:30,560
incredibly valuable

2193
01:13:33,830 --> 01:13:32,320
to those individuals it would have been

2194
01:13:36,630 --> 01:13:33,840
very helpful if i would have been

2195
01:13:38,070 --> 01:13:36,640
involved in that and injecting that in

2196
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:38,080
and things like that and so now i'm

2197
01:13:44,950 --> 01:13:40,320
trying to walk a careful line

2198
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:44,960
in this new community where you know i'm

2199
01:13:51,669 --> 01:13:48,239
i often will let a day of people post

2200
01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:51,679
you know before i even think about um

2201
01:13:55,030 --> 01:13:53,920
posting on a post oftentimes i'm not

2202
01:13:56,950 --> 01:13:55,040
needed to post there's

2203
01:13:58,709 --> 01:13:56,960
all kinds of experiences from all kinds

2204
01:14:00,149 --> 01:13:58,719
of people it's a pretty big community

2205
01:14:01,590 --> 01:14:00,159
right off the bat with a lot of

2206
01:14:02,790 --> 01:14:01,600
experience and fundamental well-being

2207
01:14:04,310 --> 01:14:02,800
people that have been in it forever

2208
01:14:06,470 --> 01:14:04,320
people that are brand new to it a lot of

2209
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:06,480
diversity it's been kind of amazing

2210
01:14:09,990 --> 01:14:08,400
um but you know i will look through

2211
01:14:11,590 --> 01:14:10,000
those threads and i will see what is it

2212
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:11,600
that i could really add here is there

2213
01:14:14,790 --> 01:14:13,199
anything on this thread that i could add

2214
01:14:16,550 --> 01:14:14,800
that's you know value and if there isn't

2215
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:16,560
i don't comment on i just like people's

2216
01:14:19,510 --> 01:14:17,760
posts and stuff

2217
01:14:21,189 --> 01:14:19,520
uh it's not if it's a private facebook

2218
01:14:23,270 --> 01:14:21,199
group um or

2219
01:14:24,229 --> 01:14:23,280
uh if there is then i will inject my own

2220
01:14:27,030 --> 01:14:24,239
thing i'm hyper

2221
01:14:27,990 --> 01:14:27,040
i think we have to be hyper hyper hyper

2222
01:14:31,270 --> 01:14:28,000
hyper

2223
01:14:32,870 --> 01:14:31,280
aware of this um just because it's

2224
01:14:34,630 --> 01:14:32,880
hey it's just personally not what i want

2225
01:14:39,350 --> 01:14:34,640
for my life i don't

2226
01:14:43,030 --> 01:14:39,360
think it's a great lifestyle um to have

2227
01:14:46,070 --> 01:14:43,040
people projecting all their stuff on you

2228
01:14:49,430 --> 01:14:46,080
but also i i you know

2229
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:49,440
i think it's important to allow

2230
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:53,360
peers to allow more of a peer system and

2231
01:14:56,870 --> 01:14:55,199
to try to be as much of a peer sort of

2232
01:14:58,310 --> 01:14:56,880
as you can understanding that i'm never

2233
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:58,320
going to be a peer right i mean there

2234
01:15:03,189 --> 01:15:00,239
isn't anybody else who's put

2235
01:15:03,510 --> 01:15:03,199
the last 15 years of their life and you

2236
01:15:05,669 --> 01:15:03,520
know

2237
01:15:07,189 --> 01:15:05,679
millions of dollars in resources and you

2238
01:15:08,790 --> 01:15:07,199
know whatever else into just

2239
01:15:10,709 --> 01:15:08,800
doing this those people did other things

2240
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:10,719
with their lives for the last 15 years

2241
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:12,050
which i hope were more fun

2242
01:15:17,189 --> 01:15:15,440
[Laughter]

2243
01:15:18,630 --> 01:15:17,199
but it cuts both ways right i mean

2244
01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:18,640
that's the one thing

2245
01:15:22,870 --> 01:15:21,280
that we all realize is that they cannot

2246
01:15:24,310 --> 01:15:22,880
be your peer when it comes to the

2247
01:15:26,790 --> 01:15:24,320
finders course and

2248
01:15:28,470 --> 01:15:26,800
you can't be their peer when it comes to

2249
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:28,480
you know their career as a

2250
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:30,800
neurosurgeon right i mean you can't you

2251
01:15:33,830 --> 01:15:31,920
can't right

2252
01:15:36,070 --> 01:15:33,840
so we get that that's awesome so i'll

2253
01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:36,080
tell you what um

2254
01:15:39,830 --> 01:15:38,320
let's let's kind of i want to cover two

2255
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:39,840
more things as we wrap up

2256
01:15:46,149 --> 01:15:43,600
one yeah obviously where this course

2257
01:15:47,750 --> 01:15:46,159
is going in terms of if people are

2258
01:15:48,709 --> 01:15:47,760
intrigued and now this does sound like a

2259
01:15:50,630 --> 01:15:48,719
shill thing but

2260
01:15:51,750 --> 01:15:50,640
if people are intrigued by this and they

2261
01:15:53,350 --> 01:15:51,760
should be

2262
01:15:56,709 --> 01:15:53,360
you know what is the future like for

2263
01:15:59,030 --> 01:15:56,719
them how would they go about doing this

2264
01:15:59,990 --> 01:15:59,040
when is it happening how is it happening

2265
01:16:01,430 --> 01:16:00,000
how do they do it

2266
01:16:03,110 --> 01:16:01,440
and then finally i want to talk about

2267
01:16:04,149 --> 01:16:03,120
the technology thing because that always

2268
01:16:06,149 --> 01:16:04,159
intrigues me

2269
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,159
and it kind of cuts both ways in terms

2270
01:16:10,149 --> 01:16:08,239
of god needs our help in terms of

2271
01:16:11,669 --> 01:16:10,159
wearing your little helmet there to get

2272
01:16:16,149 --> 01:16:11,679
uh realization and meet

2273
01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,159
uh god so absolutely so the

2274
01:16:19,510 --> 01:16:18,480
uh the answer to your first question is

2275
01:16:21,030 --> 01:16:19,520
um

2276
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:21,040
because of the volunteer involvement

2277
01:16:27,830 --> 01:16:24,080
we're going to do at least one more

2278
01:16:29,910 --> 01:16:27,840
on july 18th and so

2279
01:16:31,030 --> 01:16:29,920
that would actually be like july 13th or

2280
01:16:33,510 --> 01:16:31,040
something when

2281
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:33,520
it starts because there's a pre-week and

2282
01:16:36,390 --> 01:16:35,040
that's going to be really our volunteer

2283
01:16:39,030 --> 01:16:36,400
test

2284
01:16:40,070 --> 01:16:39,040
and i think it's going to go really well

2285
01:16:42,709 --> 01:16:40,080
and

2286
01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:42,719
assuming that you know that's a correct

2287
01:16:46,149 --> 01:16:43,760
assessment

2288
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:46,159
on my part i'm sure we'll probably run

2289
01:16:48,229 --> 01:16:47,040
you know we'll

2290
01:16:50,310 --> 01:16:48,239
try to keep the thing out there and

2291
01:16:51,270 --> 01:16:50,320
we'll try to keep it as accessible as it

2292
01:16:53,110 --> 01:16:51,280
can be

2293
01:16:55,110 --> 01:16:53,120
um so that as many people can take

2294
01:16:56,630 --> 01:16:55,120
advantage of it as possible

2295
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:56,640
uh one of the things that i've done and

2296
01:16:59,189 --> 01:16:58,239
i don't know how the second part turns

2297
01:17:02,550 --> 01:16:59,199
out yet

2298
01:17:04,550 --> 01:17:02,560
um but the right now

2299
01:17:06,630 --> 01:17:04,560
it's called 45 days to awakening i think

2300
01:17:09,430 --> 01:17:06,640
there will probably be a 45 days to the

2301
01:17:12,070 --> 01:17:09,440
elimination of depression and 45 days to

2302
01:17:13,669 --> 01:17:12,080
you know reducing anxiety and 45 days to

2303
01:17:16,070 --> 01:17:13,679
all kinds of different things

2304
01:17:17,990 --> 01:17:16,080
uh and slight tweaks to the program

2305
01:17:21,189 --> 01:17:18,000
because the academic numbers are

2306
01:17:23,510 --> 01:17:21,199
amazing there's a huge drop for instance

2307
01:17:25,669 --> 01:17:23,520
and says the depression scores

2308
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:25,679
that we're seeing for this just like

2309
01:17:27,669 --> 01:17:27,280
there was for the finders course and

2310
01:17:29,350 --> 01:17:27,679
there's

2311
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:29,360
you know more than half the population

2312
01:17:33,270 --> 01:17:31,040
is depressed right drill into that

2313
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:33,280
number a little bit because when you do

2314
01:17:37,110 --> 01:17:35,760
it's super impressive and that is that

2315
01:17:38,550 --> 01:17:37,120
as i understand it

2316
01:17:40,229 --> 01:17:38,560
you know this is something we've

2317
01:17:42,310 --> 01:17:40,239
measured for a long time

2318
01:17:44,229 --> 01:17:42,320
and a lot of different uh therapy

2319
01:17:45,590 --> 01:17:44,239
modality kind of things or whatever

2320
01:17:47,110 --> 01:17:45,600
thing they talk about it you know we try

2321
01:17:48,310 --> 01:17:47,120
and help you this way we try and help

2322
01:17:50,229 --> 01:17:48,320
you with medication

2323
01:17:51,270 --> 01:17:50,239
try and help you with cognitive therapy

2324
01:17:51,910 --> 01:17:51,280
we try and help you all these different

2325
01:17:53,669 --> 01:17:51,920
things

2326
01:17:55,590 --> 01:17:53,679
we see man that number isn't changing

2327
01:17:56,709 --> 01:17:55,600
very good then you come along

2328
01:17:58,470 --> 01:17:56,719
and you know how to apply the same

2329
01:17:59,750 --> 01:17:58,480
standards you can apply them and that

2330
01:18:02,790 --> 01:17:59,760
number shifts

2331
01:18:04,310 --> 01:18:02,800
that's why it's significant what can you

2332
01:18:05,830 --> 01:18:04,320
add to that or correct demand and

2333
01:18:07,830 --> 01:18:05,840
whatever

2334
01:18:08,950 --> 01:18:07,840
yeah you know absolutely absolutely

2335
01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:08,960
correct and so

2336
01:18:13,910 --> 01:18:12,239
if you think about um

2337
01:18:15,590 --> 01:18:13,920
so let me actually look at the numbers

2338
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:15,600
here real quick because i've

2339
01:18:18,870 --> 01:18:17,520
i've got the spreadsheet open because i

2340
01:18:19,990 --> 01:18:18,880
thought you know

2341
01:18:22,070 --> 01:18:20,000
you said you wanted to go through

2342
01:18:22,709 --> 01:18:22,080
numbers and i'm a numbers guy right so

2343
01:18:27,110 --> 01:18:22,719
i'm like

2344
01:18:28,870 --> 01:18:27,120
cool um so we had

2345
01:18:30,390 --> 01:18:28,880
ultimately in terms of people

2346
01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:30,400
successfully completing there were three

2347
01:18:34,550 --> 01:18:31,600
cohorts

2348
01:18:35,990 --> 01:18:34,560
of the 45 days initial experiment and i

2349
01:18:37,110 --> 01:18:36,000
thought there would only be one but so

2350
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:37,120
many people referred

2351
01:18:41,830 --> 01:18:39,600
other people from the first cohort that

2352
01:18:43,669 --> 01:18:41,840
i started a second one like a week later

2353
01:18:45,430 --> 01:18:43,679
and then so many people referred even

2354
01:18:46,870 --> 01:18:45,440
more people that like i don't know a few

2355
01:18:47,910 --> 01:18:46,880
weeks after that or something i started

2356
01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:47,920
a third one that isn't part of the

2357
01:18:51,030 --> 01:18:49,760
experiment so it's only the first two

2358
01:18:52,870 --> 01:18:51,040
that are basically part of the

2359
01:18:55,910 --> 01:18:52,880
experiment there's a limit

2360
01:18:59,189 --> 01:18:55,920
um just in terms of what we can do

2361
01:18:59,910 --> 01:18:59,199
and so 332 people from those first two

2362
01:19:02,950 --> 01:18:59,920
cohorts

2363
01:19:05,110 --> 01:19:02,960
wound up um

2364
01:19:07,030 --> 01:19:05,120
you know basically going through and

2365
01:19:08,149 --> 01:19:07,040
successfully giving us pre-post data on

2366
01:19:11,430 --> 01:19:08,159
the says d measure

2367
01:19:12,870 --> 01:19:11,440
which is the center for epidemiological

2368
01:19:14,470 --> 01:19:12,880
studies depression measure one of the

2369
01:19:17,270 --> 01:19:14,480
most widely used depression measures out

2370
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:22,390
and basically there was a percent change

2371
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:27,920
in that um in that overall population

2372
01:19:32,390 --> 01:19:31,199
that was not that much compared to what

2373
01:19:35,830 --> 01:19:32,400
we'd seen before

2374
01:19:38,070 --> 01:19:35,840
which was 12 now what's

2375
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:38,080
interesting is that just because of the

2376
01:19:43,430 --> 01:19:40,159
nature of our work

2377
01:19:45,590 --> 01:19:43,440
a lot of people that took the 45 days

2378
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:45,600
experiment were already experiencing

2379
01:19:51,030 --> 01:19:47,679
fundamental well-being

2380
01:19:54,950 --> 01:19:51,040
and so a huge percentage of those

2381
01:19:57,110 --> 01:19:54,960
300 people wound up

2382
01:19:58,310 --> 01:19:57,120
sort of already experiencing fundamental

2383
01:20:00,310 --> 01:19:58,320
well-being and so that

2384
01:20:01,830 --> 01:20:00,320
that causes us to sort of have to go

2385
01:20:04,870 --> 01:20:01,840
back through

2386
01:20:07,750 --> 01:20:04,880
and take a look at the numbers at

2387
01:20:08,709 --> 01:20:07,760
more of an individual level just to get

2388
01:20:11,350 --> 01:20:08,719
a more accurate

2389
01:20:12,550 --> 01:20:11,360
baseline right yeah that's right and

2390
01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:12,560
actually you know i i

2391
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:13,679
actually was looking at a different

2392
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:16,000
column as that was a different value

2393
01:20:19,270 --> 01:20:18,239
and it was a so in the finders course it

2394
01:20:21,990 --> 01:20:19,280
was basically like

2395
01:20:23,189 --> 01:20:22,000
half it was like a 50 reduction

2396
01:20:26,390 --> 01:20:23,199
practically

2397
01:20:28,550 --> 01:20:26,400
and um in this number and the

2398
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:28,560
fascinating thing about this from a 45

2399
01:20:33,070 --> 01:20:29,760
days number

2400
01:20:35,430 --> 01:20:33,080
is that in that overall in that sort of

2401
01:20:39,110 --> 01:20:35,440
333 people or so

2402
01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:39,120
um 332 or 333 people

2403
01:20:45,910 --> 01:20:43,199
um it was it was actually a 41 percent

2404
01:20:48,070 --> 01:20:45,920
drop and if you think about the fact

2405
01:20:51,030 --> 01:20:48,080
that

2406
01:20:51,750 --> 01:20:51,040
probably half of those 300 people were

2407
01:20:55,430 --> 01:20:51,760
already in

2408
01:21:00,149 --> 01:20:58,390
imagine what the drop is in the

2409
01:21:01,830 --> 01:21:00,159
individuals that weren't

2410
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:01,840
in fundamental well-being and i don't

2411
01:21:03,750 --> 01:21:03,440
have those numbers yet but it's going to

2412
01:21:06,149 --> 01:21:03,760
be

2413
01:21:07,750 --> 01:21:06,159
you know sort of off the charts and so

2414
01:21:09,510 --> 01:21:07,760
one of the things that we looked at

2415
01:21:11,510 --> 01:21:09,520
then was well what happens if you just

2416
01:21:13,149 --> 01:21:11,520
sorted on everybody that was in some

2417
01:21:15,270 --> 01:21:13,159
form of fundamental well-being which was

2418
01:21:18,310 --> 01:21:15,280
224 people

2419
01:21:21,910 --> 01:21:18,320
and that even with

2420
01:21:23,750 --> 01:21:21,920
tons of finders in that tons of people

2421
01:21:24,310 --> 01:21:23,760
who experience fundamental well-being in

2422
01:21:28,070 --> 01:21:24,320
that

2423
01:21:30,310 --> 01:21:28,080
it's a 51.72 percent drop

2424
01:21:31,350 --> 01:21:30,320
and the effect size the cohen's d for

2425
01:21:34,470 --> 01:21:31,360
anybody that knows what that is the

2426
01:21:37,189 --> 01:21:34,480
effect size is a 0.7

2427
01:21:38,229 --> 01:21:37,199
for that which is just i mean it's just

2428
01:21:40,709 --> 01:21:38,239
crazy and so like

2429
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:40,719
what is that number going to be when we

2430
01:21:45,590 --> 01:21:42,480
take out the people who were in

2431
01:21:47,270 --> 01:21:45,600
who already had a low depression score

2432
01:21:49,350 --> 01:21:47,280
well do this for me do this for me and

2433
01:21:52,709 --> 01:21:49,360
do this for the audience

2434
01:21:55,990 --> 01:21:52,719
compare that you do know the numbers

2435
01:21:57,990 --> 01:21:56,000
and you know the science so compare that

2436
01:21:59,350 --> 01:21:58,000
to something else that people can relate

2437
01:22:02,550 --> 01:21:59,360
it to something else

2438
01:22:05,030 --> 01:22:02,560
they could do that has been clinically

2439
01:22:07,350 --> 01:22:05,040
measured to effectively deal with

2440
01:22:09,270 --> 01:22:07,360
depression

2441
01:22:10,550 --> 01:22:09,280
yeah that's the thing i don't know of

2442
01:22:12,709 --> 01:22:10,560
anything look

2443
01:22:13,590 --> 01:22:12,719
at that some things chose that level of

2444
01:22:15,590 --> 01:22:13,600
drop right but

2445
01:22:16,950 --> 01:22:15,600
hold on man just just hit the just hit

2446
01:22:18,950 --> 01:22:16,960
the high points of

2447
01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:18,960
again so there's a lot of research been

2448
01:22:23,270 --> 01:22:20,320
done on exercise

2449
01:22:25,110 --> 01:22:23,280
on sleep on diet on all sorts of

2450
01:22:28,149 --> 01:22:25,120
different uh pharmaceutical

2451
01:22:29,590 --> 01:22:28,159
products that you could do

2452
01:22:31,189 --> 01:22:29,600
i assume you didn't want me to mention

2453
01:22:32,550 --> 01:22:31,199
pharmaceuticals no i mean i'm just

2454
01:22:34,070 --> 01:22:32,560
saying kind of an obvious one

2455
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:34,080
but i'm mentioning it from the

2456
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:35,760
standpoint of

2457
01:22:40,070 --> 01:22:37,440
you're making a claim here you're making

2458
01:22:40,709 --> 01:22:40,080
a claim that this number is off the

2459
01:22:42,310 --> 01:22:40,719
charts

2460
01:22:43,830 --> 01:22:42,320
i want if someone wants to go

2461
01:22:45,990 --> 01:22:43,840
investigate for themselves

2462
01:22:47,030 --> 01:22:46,000
they go oh okay here's a guy who didn't

2463
01:22:49,270 --> 01:22:47,040
experiment on

2464
01:22:50,470 --> 01:22:49,280
go to google scholar and you know search

2465
01:22:54,470 --> 01:22:50,480
on

2466
01:22:56,470 --> 01:22:54,480
and they're going to find people that

2467
01:22:58,229 --> 01:22:56,480
tried to do it the same way that you

2468
01:23:01,350 --> 01:22:58,239
tried to do it in terms of

2469
01:23:03,510 --> 01:23:01,360
say have a control and then

2470
01:23:05,110 --> 01:23:03,520
have an effect and see what the effect

2471
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:05,120
size is and measure it and they're going

2472
01:23:08,149 --> 01:23:05,760
to

2473
01:23:09,910 --> 01:23:08,159
wind up in a lot of ways talking in the

2474
01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:09,920
same way that you're talking about and

2475
01:23:13,110 --> 01:23:10,719
their numbers

2476
01:23:15,110 --> 01:23:13,120
aren't quite as good so there you have

2477
01:23:16,390 --> 01:23:15,120
it i mean that's the sum total of

2478
01:23:18,070 --> 01:23:16,400
what you're talking about you know for

2479
01:23:19,590 --> 01:23:18,080
them they'll have to you'd want to

2480
01:23:21,270 --> 01:23:19,600
search on it

2481
01:23:23,189 --> 01:23:21,280
also not just from a depressed

2482
01:23:24,550 --> 01:23:23,199
population right because our population

2483
01:23:25,350 --> 01:23:24,560
wasn't a bunch of depressed people we

2484
01:23:28,229 --> 01:23:25,360
don't know it was

2485
01:23:29,830 --> 01:23:28,239
330 depressed people it's a much smaller

2486
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:29,840
number of people who were who were

2487
01:23:34,870 --> 01:23:32,000
depressed

2488
01:23:36,629 --> 01:23:34,880
and so if you really wanted to do a an

2489
01:23:37,990 --> 01:23:36,639
apples to apples comparison which you

2490
01:23:38,629 --> 01:23:38,000
would do is you would go and you would

2491
01:23:41,030 --> 01:23:38,639
search on

2492
01:23:43,430 --> 01:23:41,040
somebody who had sort of uh done the

2493
01:23:46,550 --> 01:23:43,440
normalization of a measure like says d

2494
01:23:48,950 --> 01:23:46,560
right and so you know they gave it to

2495
01:23:49,990 --> 01:23:48,960
college you know they paid gallup to

2496
01:23:52,550 --> 01:23:50,000
give them a cross

2497
01:23:54,149 --> 01:23:52,560
representation of people right or they

2498
01:23:56,070 --> 01:23:54,159
did it to

2499
01:23:57,990 --> 01:23:56,080
a thousand undergraduate students that

2500
01:23:59,030 --> 01:23:58,000
were taking psych 101 and wanted to pass

2501
01:23:59,750 --> 01:23:59,040
the course we're forced to take the

2502
01:24:01,669 --> 01:23:59,760
thing or

2503
01:24:03,430 --> 01:24:01,679
you know in order to do that or you know

2504
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:03,440
it was any one of these various ways

2505
01:24:06,149 --> 01:24:05,199
that you sort of get it kind of a normal

2506
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:06,159
population

2507
01:24:09,830 --> 01:24:08,400
uh i and if they really wanted sort of

2508
01:24:11,750 --> 01:24:09,840
apples to apples and they would have to

2509
01:24:12,709 --> 01:24:11,760
look for a meditation study that used

2510
01:24:15,990 --> 01:24:12,719
this

2511
01:24:17,910 --> 01:24:16,000
you know or a positive psychology study

2512
01:24:19,030 --> 01:24:17,920
that used this to come closer there

2513
01:24:20,629 --> 01:24:19,040
really the problem is that there really

2514
01:24:22,790 --> 01:24:20,639
isn't an apples to apples

2515
01:24:23,830 --> 01:24:22,800
uh direct comparison because there isn't

2516
01:24:25,669 --> 01:24:23,840
a you know

2517
01:24:27,590 --> 01:24:25,679
our we're working on writing this data

2518
01:24:28,070 --> 01:24:27,600
up now you know this phase is closing

2519
01:24:30,550 --> 01:24:28,080
for us

2520
01:24:31,350 --> 01:24:30,560
this this you know transition research

2521
01:24:33,430 --> 01:24:31,360
phase

2522
01:24:35,270 --> 01:24:33,440
it's closing for us and so we're in the

2523
01:24:37,270 --> 01:24:35,280
process of creating the articles

2524
01:24:38,629 --> 01:24:37,280
basically around all of this data

2525
01:24:40,470 --> 01:24:38,639
finally after all these years

2526
01:24:41,750 --> 01:24:40,480
and so what has happened is our staff

2527
01:24:45,669 --> 01:24:41,760
members have been out there

2528
01:24:47,990 --> 01:24:45,679
combing the literature for comparison

2529
01:24:49,110 --> 01:24:48,000
studies and data and information because

2530
01:24:50,790 --> 01:24:49,120
that's of course what you have to put

2531
01:24:52,470 --> 01:24:50,800
into the introductory session you have

2532
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:52,480
to then compare it to the discussion

2533
01:24:55,590 --> 01:24:53,760
section right

2534
01:24:57,669 --> 01:24:55,600
let me ask you this because there isn't

2535
01:24:59,110 --> 01:24:57,679
the apples to apples a pure sort of

2536
01:24:59,990 --> 01:24:59,120
apples to apples out there there aren't

2537
01:25:01,430 --> 01:25:00,000
these meditation

2538
01:25:03,830 --> 01:25:01,440
and positive psychology thing that's

2539
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:03,840
very novel the length is very novel the

2540
01:25:06,390 --> 01:25:05,760
intensiveness is very novel it's a

2541
01:25:08,870 --> 01:25:06,400
really

2542
01:25:12,070 --> 01:25:08,880
novel thing let me ask you this because

2543
01:25:13,350 --> 01:25:12,080
it's going to make for a great article

2544
01:25:15,030 --> 01:25:13,360
it's gonna make for an article that gets

2545
01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:15,040
a lot of citations which is what you

2546
01:25:17,430 --> 01:25:16,480
want on the science side of your life

2547
01:25:19,030 --> 01:25:17,440
you know

2548
01:25:21,189 --> 01:25:19,040
man that's exactly where i was going

2549
01:25:22,870 --> 01:25:21,199
it's like you read my mind there because

2550
01:25:25,270 --> 01:25:22,880
i want people to understand part of this

2551
01:25:28,390 --> 01:25:25,280
is understanding the science

2552
01:25:31,669 --> 01:25:28,400
process the scientific method both

2553
01:25:32,629 --> 01:25:31,679
as it is right now with all its failures

2554
01:25:35,750 --> 01:25:32,639
and failings

2555
01:25:37,990 --> 01:25:35,760
but also why it's in a lot of ways

2556
01:25:39,189 --> 01:25:38,000
the best we have right now and i think

2557
01:25:43,030 --> 01:25:39,199
that

2558
01:25:44,149 --> 01:25:43,040
because i have the show coming up where

2559
01:25:45,750 --> 01:25:44,159
there's this guy and i don't want to

2560
01:25:47,189 --> 01:25:45,760
mention his name but

2561
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:47,199
he's out there and he's saying all this

2562
01:25:49,590 --> 01:25:48,719
stuff and he's really prominent in our

2563
01:25:51,030 --> 01:25:49,600
community

2564
01:25:52,950 --> 01:25:51,040
and i've looked into his science and

2565
01:25:55,430 --> 01:25:52,960
it's just it just doesn't measure up

2566
01:25:56,709 --> 01:25:55,440
and i've gone to people that should know

2567
01:25:58,390 --> 01:25:56,719
you know where

2568
01:26:00,070 --> 01:25:58,400
people that should be citing his work

2569
01:26:00,629 --> 01:26:00,080
and i'm like why aren't you citing this

2570
01:26:02,790 --> 01:26:00,639
work

2571
01:26:04,790 --> 01:26:02,800
and they're saying because it's garbage

2572
01:26:06,629 --> 01:26:04,800
man i mean i can't come out and say it

2573
01:26:07,990 --> 01:26:06,639
in public or i don't want to i don't

2574
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:08,000
want to get in any big public

2575
01:26:13,030 --> 01:26:11,440
fight but it is complete utter garbage

2576
01:26:14,229 --> 01:26:13,040
and it's in the quantum physics realm

2577
01:26:16,629 --> 01:26:14,239
where a lot of people are even more

2578
01:26:19,590 --> 01:26:16,639
afraid to talk because

2579
01:26:20,870 --> 01:26:19,600
that's so right you know but i don't

2580
01:26:22,950 --> 01:26:20,880
want to digress too far

2581
01:26:24,070 --> 01:26:22,960
what i want to emphasize is what i

2582
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:24,080
understand what i take

2583
01:26:27,669 --> 01:26:26,239
from what i've discovered so far about

2584
01:26:28,390 --> 01:26:27,679
your work is you're in the social

2585
01:26:30,470 --> 01:26:28,400
sciences

2586
01:26:32,550 --> 01:26:30,480
you're connected with people who should

2587
01:26:33,990 --> 01:26:32,560
know who are monitoring your work when

2588
01:26:35,830 --> 01:26:34,000
you get peer-reviewed

2589
01:26:37,750 --> 01:26:35,840
work published it really is peer

2590
01:26:38,149 --> 01:26:37,760
reviewed it really is people should know

2591
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:38,159
better

2592
01:26:42,709 --> 01:26:40,880
when you present at conferences people

2593
01:26:43,910 --> 01:26:42,719
in the audience are the people that

2594
01:26:46,390 --> 01:26:43,920
should

2595
01:26:47,270 --> 01:26:46,400
no would be able to raise their arm and

2596
01:26:50,229 --> 01:26:47,280
go

2597
01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:50,239
that's totally ridiculous

2598
01:26:53,430 --> 01:26:51,840
jeffrey that's not true

2599
01:26:54,550 --> 01:26:53,440
that's the least and you want them to do

2600
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:54,560
it that's why you show up at the

2601
01:26:57,830 --> 01:26:56,000
conference right because you're like

2602
01:26:59,750 --> 01:26:57,840
hoping that the arms will go up so that

2603
01:27:02,870 --> 01:26:59,760
you can improve

2604
01:27:04,070 --> 01:27:02,880
for the next round and exactly so i just

2605
01:27:06,310 --> 01:27:04,080
get that that's where you're

2606
01:27:07,590 --> 01:27:06,320
at and you have had those arms go up and

2607
01:27:09,590 --> 01:27:07,600
you have dealt with that

2608
01:27:11,430 --> 01:27:09,600
and that's just a different level on

2609
01:27:13,990 --> 01:27:11,440
this stuff than

2610
01:27:15,270 --> 01:27:14,000
somebody who's trying to wrap themselves

2611
01:27:17,189 --> 01:27:15,280
in the cloak of science

2612
01:27:18,950 --> 01:27:17,199
but not really trying to engage in the

2613
01:27:21,510 --> 01:27:18,960
the scientific method

2614
01:27:22,709 --> 01:27:21,520
and all it means so when i said i want

2615
01:27:24,390 --> 01:27:22,719
to drill into the numbers

2616
01:27:26,229 --> 01:27:24,400
i want to drill into what's behind the

2617
01:27:28,310 --> 01:27:26,239
numbers for sure

2618
01:27:30,830 --> 01:27:28,320
i think that it's funny because the peer

2619
01:27:33,430 --> 01:27:30,840
review process

2620
01:27:36,070 --> 01:27:33,440
is so

2621
01:27:37,510 --> 01:27:36,080
broken you know i mean if anyone

2622
01:27:41,110 --> 01:27:37,520
searches on this and google

2623
01:27:43,990 --> 01:27:41,120
they'll just see endless amounts

2624
01:27:44,709 --> 01:27:44,000
of you know critic critiques and you

2625
01:27:47,030 --> 01:27:44,719
know

2626
01:27:48,790 --> 01:27:47,040
data analysis critiques philosophy

2627
01:27:50,950 --> 01:27:48,800
critiques just all of it i mean

2628
01:27:52,149 --> 01:27:50,960
i don't know anyone who thinks you know

2629
01:27:54,390 --> 01:27:52,159
wow this is

2630
01:27:55,189 --> 01:27:54,400
you know really awesome in science right

2631
01:27:59,990 --> 01:27:55,199
now

2632
01:28:03,270 --> 01:28:00,000
have is that

2633
01:28:05,830 --> 01:28:03,280
journals all have their specific slant

2634
01:28:07,750 --> 01:28:05,840
right um and so for instance you know

2635
01:28:09,590 --> 01:28:07,760
there's a there's a religion

2636
01:28:11,830 --> 01:28:09,600
there's a major religion and

2637
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:11,840
spirituality journal out there

2638
01:28:16,070 --> 01:28:14,560
that has one of its primary editors

2639
01:28:18,149 --> 01:28:16,080
people who are really into the type of

2640
01:28:21,110 --> 01:28:18,159
research that we do

2641
01:28:22,790 --> 01:28:21,120
but the senior editor makes almost

2642
01:28:26,149 --> 01:28:22,800
completely certain

2643
01:28:27,510 --> 01:28:26,159
that none of that work shows up in it um

2644
01:28:29,270 --> 01:28:27,520
right and so you can even have a

2645
01:28:30,550 --> 01:28:29,280
situation where you look at an editorial

2646
01:28:32,790 --> 01:28:30,560
board of a journal and you think to

2647
01:28:33,430 --> 01:28:32,800
yourself oh wow you know in the senior

2648
01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:33,440
editor

2649
01:28:37,189 --> 01:28:35,040
ranks there are there are people

2650
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:37,199
friendly to this work or that work or

2651
01:28:41,590 --> 01:28:40,159
whatever else um and yet none of it will

2652
01:28:43,189 --> 01:28:41,600
ever get into that journal

2653
01:28:45,189 --> 01:28:43,199
you know because the person that sits at

2654
01:28:46,070 --> 01:28:45,199
the top of it will stamp it out and so

2655
01:28:47,750 --> 01:28:46,080
it's this

2656
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:47,760
massive political infrastructure it

2657
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:49,199
often deals with people's individual

2658
01:28:52,229 --> 01:28:50,400
careers like

2659
01:28:54,070 --> 01:28:52,239
you know why if i'm at the top of my

2660
01:28:55,590 --> 01:28:54,080
field after 60 years

2661
01:28:57,750 --> 01:28:55,600
why would i want you to come along and

2662
01:28:58,149 --> 01:28:57,760
upend my career right so i'm just going

2663
01:29:01,350 --> 01:28:58,159
to

2664
01:29:03,189 --> 01:29:01,360
keep you out of the system

2665
01:29:05,350 --> 01:29:03,199
of information sharing or whatever else

2666
01:29:08,229 --> 01:29:05,360
right and that's why

2667
01:29:09,830 --> 01:29:08,239
to my mind the and i think to most

2668
01:29:10,629 --> 01:29:09,840
people's minds frankly that are in the

2669
01:29:13,590 --> 01:29:10,639
sciences

2670
01:29:14,390 --> 01:29:13,600
the real peer review happens among your

2671
01:29:17,430 --> 01:29:14,400
colleagues

2672
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:17,440
and among the actual relationships

2673
01:29:21,189 --> 01:29:19,679
that you build up like nobody submits an

2674
01:29:22,470 --> 01:29:21,199
article that they haven't mailed all of

2675
01:29:25,189 --> 01:29:22,480
their friends first

2676
01:29:26,629 --> 01:29:25,199
and made heavy modifications too based

2677
01:29:28,550 --> 01:29:26,639
on what all of their other you know

2678
01:29:31,350 --> 01:29:28,560
professor and scientist friends

2679
01:29:31,830 --> 01:29:31,360
said about that article ironically it's

2680
01:29:33,270 --> 01:29:31,840
it's

2681
01:29:35,350 --> 01:29:33,280
if it is a journal that is going to

2682
01:29:37,590 --> 01:29:35,360
publish it they'll often send it back to

2683
01:29:39,030 --> 01:29:37,600
those people to do peer review

2684
01:29:41,030 --> 01:29:39,040
because there's a small pool of people

2685
01:29:42,470 --> 01:29:41,040
that are experts in each area

2686
01:29:44,149 --> 01:29:42,480
you know and kind of everybody's

2687
01:29:45,030 --> 01:29:44,159
peer-reviewing everybody else's stuff

2688
01:29:47,430 --> 01:29:45,040
anyway

2689
01:29:49,510 --> 01:29:47,440
at an official level but at an

2690
01:29:51,430 --> 01:29:49,520
unofficial level you're sending this out

2691
01:29:55,110 --> 01:29:51,440
you're sending a draft paper out to

2692
01:29:56,870 --> 01:29:55,120
everybody you know who's interested

2693
01:29:58,149 --> 01:29:56,880
in what the paper is about and you're

2694
01:29:59,750 --> 01:29:58,159
taking their feedback

2695
01:30:01,030 --> 01:29:59,760
back and you're modifying it you're

2696
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:01,040
probably sending it to them again and

2697
01:30:05,110 --> 01:30:03,199
begging them to read it one more time

2698
01:30:06,950 --> 01:30:05,120
or whatever else that's really where

2699
01:30:07,510 --> 01:30:06,960
peer review happens in science and i

2700
01:30:10,550 --> 01:30:07,520
think where

2701
01:30:11,510 --> 01:30:10,560
peer review even beyond that happens is

2702
01:30:14,950 --> 01:30:11,520
really

2703
01:30:16,709 --> 01:30:14,960
in person in conferences you know it's

2704
01:30:17,990 --> 01:30:16,719
when you're standing up first of all

2705
01:30:19,350 --> 01:30:18,000
it's where your people who are

2706
01:30:20,229 --> 01:30:19,360
interested in what you're into get

2707
01:30:21,510 --> 01:30:20,239
together

2708
01:30:23,270 --> 01:30:21,520
in person it's where you build the

2709
01:30:25,030 --> 01:30:23,280
relationships that allow you to send the

2710
01:30:26,629 --> 01:30:25,040
emails when you have written

2711
01:30:28,629 --> 01:30:26,639
something or when you are thinking about

2712
01:30:30,550 --> 01:30:28,639
a new experimental design and you want a

2713
01:30:32,149 --> 01:30:30,560
bunch of other people to comment on it

2714
01:30:33,990 --> 01:30:32,159
or whatever else so you build the

2715
01:30:35,669 --> 01:30:34,000
relationships really by going to

2716
01:30:37,350 --> 01:30:35,679
in-person conferences and events

2717
01:30:39,189 --> 01:30:37,360
traditionally probably that will resume

2718
01:30:40,870 --> 01:30:39,199
after covet i assume

2719
01:30:41,830 --> 01:30:40,880
i guess current you know new students or

2720
01:30:43,510 --> 01:30:41,840
something are a little bit of a

2721
01:30:47,030 --> 01:30:43,520
disadvantage at the moment

2722
01:30:48,550 --> 01:30:47,040
um and so then at the conference of

2723
01:30:50,310 --> 01:30:48,560
course you're presenting whatever your

2724
01:30:51,830 --> 01:30:50,320
latest findings are conference findings

2725
01:30:53,110 --> 01:30:51,840
are always years ahead of publications

2726
01:30:55,430 --> 01:30:53,120
for the most part

2727
01:30:57,830 --> 01:30:55,440
um and so you're presenting your very

2728
01:30:59,669 --> 01:30:57,840
latest stuff for a room full of people

2729
01:31:01,270 --> 01:30:59,679
and you hope that there's a room full of

2730
01:31:02,709 --> 01:31:01,280
people who are interested in it to jump

2731
01:31:04,870 --> 01:31:02,719
up and down on it right

2732
01:31:06,149 --> 01:31:04,880
and to catch you in the hall afterward

2733
01:31:08,790 --> 01:31:06,159
with their concerns

2734
01:31:09,510 --> 01:31:08,800
uh and whatever else that's really where

2735
01:31:12,149 --> 01:31:09,520
true

2736
01:31:14,470 --> 01:31:12,159
peer review happens there is a very

2737
01:31:16,390 --> 01:31:14,480
vibrant peer review process

2738
01:31:18,470 --> 01:31:16,400
in science and if you know i think

2739
01:31:21,110 --> 01:31:18,480
there's been rightfully so

2740
01:31:21,910 --> 01:31:21,120
a massive critique of the journal system

2741
01:31:23,990 --> 01:31:21,920
and

2742
01:31:25,910 --> 01:31:24,000
you know it's whether or not it's peer

2743
01:31:27,910 --> 01:31:25,920
review is even remotely relevant it

2744
01:31:30,229 --> 01:31:27,920
probably isn't that relevant frankly

2745
01:31:30,950 --> 01:31:30,239
um but that doesn't mean that scientific

2746
01:31:33,910 --> 01:31:30,960
peer review

2747
01:31:34,950 --> 01:31:33,920
is you know as dead as sort of you know

2748
01:31:37,030 --> 01:31:34,960
those critics

2749
01:31:38,950 --> 01:31:37,040
would like others to believe it happens

2750
01:31:40,709 --> 01:31:38,960
all the time but it happens at the level

2751
01:31:42,950 --> 01:31:40,719
of conferences it happens at the level

2752
01:31:45,750 --> 01:31:42,960
of individual relationships

2753
01:31:47,030 --> 01:31:45,760
um you know even as you i don't know if

2754
01:31:48,709 --> 01:31:47,040
you know the center of your

2755
01:31:50,790 --> 01:31:48,719
you know viewers and listeners know this

2756
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:50,800
but generally speaking when you submit a

2757
01:31:55,990 --> 01:31:52,639
paper to a journal you're asked to

2758
01:31:58,390 --> 01:31:56,000
also submit your recommended reviewers

2759
01:31:59,270 --> 01:31:58,400
right think about that for a minute

2760
01:32:01,189 --> 01:31:59,280
right like

2761
01:32:02,629 --> 01:32:01,199
there's this there's this public

2762
01:32:05,510 --> 01:32:02,639
perception that

2763
01:32:07,590 --> 01:32:05,520
the impartial journal editor takes your

2764
01:32:09,990 --> 01:32:07,600
paper in and evaluates it on a first

2765
01:32:11,990 --> 01:32:10,000
pass for you know whether or not it's

2766
01:32:13,910 --> 01:32:12,000
meeting a level of scientific rigor and

2767
01:32:16,950 --> 01:32:13,920
then sends it out to people who have

2768
01:32:20,229 --> 01:32:16,960
no idea that it's from you

2769
01:32:23,110 --> 01:32:20,239
right for independent analysis and

2770
01:32:25,110 --> 01:32:23,120
feedback and this right when in reality

2771
01:32:28,229 --> 01:32:25,120
it's and they choose the reviewers

2772
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:28,239
for maximum impartiality and you know in

2773
01:32:32,629 --> 01:32:30,239
reality when you submit a paper

2774
01:32:34,709 --> 01:32:32,639
you know journal editors don't want to

2775
01:32:36,070 --> 01:32:34,719
try to figure out who the hell might be

2776
01:32:37,830 --> 01:32:36,080
the right people

2777
01:32:40,229 --> 01:32:37,840
for i mean they're going to send it out

2778
01:32:41,830 --> 01:32:40,239
to random people basically if you don't

2779
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:41,840
include reviewers right and so they

2780
01:32:46,149 --> 01:32:43,679
always say hey who should i

2781
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:46,159
ask to review this give me a list of two

2782
01:32:48,870 --> 01:32:46,800
three four

2783
01:32:50,790 --> 01:32:48,880
five depending on the journal you know

2784
01:32:52,629 --> 01:32:50,800
reviewers that i should send this to

2785
01:32:54,790 --> 01:32:52,639
i mean of course you check with those

2786
01:32:55,510 --> 01:32:54,800
people first right but probably they're

2787
01:32:57,590 --> 01:32:55,520
the people who

2788
01:32:59,110 --> 01:32:57,600
already sent you revisions on the draft

2789
01:33:00,790 --> 01:32:59,120
in the first place

2790
01:33:03,669 --> 01:33:00,800
right i mean you're not going to be like

2791
01:33:06,149 --> 01:33:03,679
let's see who might be completely

2792
01:33:07,350 --> 01:33:06,159
against all of my work yes i'm going to

2793
01:33:09,110 --> 01:33:07,360
suggest them

2794
01:33:10,790 --> 01:33:09,120
as a reviewer right and so it's the

2795
01:33:12,709 --> 01:33:10,800
people that are already in your peer

2796
01:33:14,550 --> 01:33:12,719
circle who have already seen the paper

2797
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:14,560
read the paper commented on the paper

2798
01:33:17,590 --> 01:33:15,840
even if they haven't they're going to

2799
01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:17,600
take one look at the paper and go

2800
01:33:21,510 --> 01:33:20,000
oh this is from jeffrey or this is from

2801
01:33:22,950 --> 01:33:21,520
such and such because they're you know

2802
01:33:24,629 --> 01:33:22,960
everybody's familiar with everybody

2803
01:33:27,030 --> 01:33:24,639
else's work right

2804
01:33:28,950 --> 01:33:27,040
um so there's no real blinding in this

2805
01:33:30,310 --> 01:33:28,960
peer review system to begin with right

2806
01:33:32,470 --> 01:33:30,320
and of course everybody

2807
01:33:34,709 --> 01:33:32,480
cites their own prior work right and you

2808
01:33:36,149 --> 01:33:34,719
all you you try to stuff a paper with

2809
01:33:38,390 --> 01:33:36,159
your own citations

2810
01:33:39,990 --> 01:33:38,400
and so even if you're a blinded reviewer

2811
01:33:41,510 --> 01:33:40,000
you can tell who the paper's from

2812
01:33:44,390 --> 01:33:41,520
because they've stuffed it with their

2813
01:33:47,350 --> 01:33:44,400
own citations from previous papers

2814
01:33:48,229 --> 01:33:47,360
in most cases right so it's just there's

2815
01:33:50,149 --> 01:33:48,239
a lot of

2816
01:33:51,910 --> 01:33:50,159
very rightful critique of the journal

2817
01:33:54,070 --> 01:33:51,920
system but what i think your

2818
01:33:56,229 --> 01:33:54,080
your you know your viewers and listeners

2819
01:33:59,030 --> 01:33:56,239
should take heart from is the fact that

2820
01:34:00,149 --> 01:33:59,040
the actual spirit in science is very

2821
01:34:02,709 --> 01:34:00,159
much there

2822
01:34:03,750 --> 01:34:02,719
and you know those of us who are

2823
01:34:06,629 --> 01:34:03,760
involved in it

2824
01:34:08,390 --> 01:34:06,639
we are constantly seeking peer review of

2825
01:34:09,510 --> 01:34:08,400
others we're constantly trying to build

2826
01:34:11,590 --> 01:34:09,520
new relationships

2827
01:34:13,110 --> 01:34:11,600
with other people who are interested in

2828
01:34:15,270 --> 01:34:13,120
what we're interested in we're

2829
01:34:18,390 --> 01:34:15,280
constantly trying to get people

2830
01:34:19,669 --> 01:34:18,400
to you know help us produce better work

2831
01:34:22,149 --> 01:34:19,679
and we're constantly helping

2832
01:34:22,950 --> 01:34:22,159
other people who are in our space to try

2833
01:34:24,790 --> 01:34:22,960
their best

2834
01:34:26,550 --> 01:34:24,800
to produce with however they're going

2835
01:34:28,470 --> 01:34:26,560
about it better work

2836
01:34:30,229 --> 01:34:28,480
um and so the peer review system is

2837
01:34:31,350 --> 01:34:30,239
really alive and well it's just sort of

2838
01:34:33,350 --> 01:34:31,360
invisible

2839
01:34:34,950 --> 01:34:33,360
to the average person and then the only

2840
01:34:35,750 --> 01:34:34,960
parts of it that are visible are like

2841
01:34:37,510 --> 01:34:35,760
the journal

2842
01:34:39,270 --> 01:34:37,520
version of peer review which is getting

2843
01:34:41,109 --> 01:34:39,280
all of this massive critique right now

2844
01:34:43,669 --> 01:34:41,119
and probably rightfully so

2845
01:34:47,030 --> 01:34:43,679
um and and so you see some journals that

2846
01:34:49,109 --> 01:34:47,040
are trying to change this right like um

2847
01:34:50,149 --> 01:34:49,119
you know there's a journal called f-1000

2848
01:34:52,390 --> 01:34:50,159
for instance

2849
01:34:53,990 --> 01:34:52,400
um and it's peer-review process is

2850
01:34:55,510 --> 01:34:54,000
transparent like you could upload a

2851
01:34:57,669 --> 01:34:55,520
paper today

2852
01:34:59,430 --> 01:34:57,679
and then it's sort of like making the

2853
01:35:01,510 --> 01:34:59,440
process of what's actually happening

2854
01:35:03,910 --> 01:35:01,520
behind the scenes transparent right

2855
01:35:05,830 --> 01:35:03,920
and so like and i would upload a paper

2856
01:35:07,669 --> 01:35:05,840
there and instead and i would email

2857
01:35:09,430 --> 01:35:07,679
all my friends and be like hey can you

2858
01:35:10,629 --> 01:35:09,440
go review that paper

2859
01:35:13,030 --> 01:35:10,639
and instead of it being something that

2860
01:35:15,750 --> 01:35:13,040
just occurs in my inbox

2861
01:35:17,590 --> 01:35:15,760
you know it's now occurring posted

2862
01:35:19,590 --> 01:35:17,600
publicly to the web and everybody can

2863
01:35:21,750 --> 01:35:19,600
see everybody else's comments and

2864
01:35:23,669 --> 01:35:21,760
so that is the absolute bleeding edge

2865
01:35:26,070 --> 01:35:23,679
sort of of a system

2866
01:35:28,149 --> 01:35:26,080
of peer review it's i don't i don't

2867
01:35:28,629 --> 01:35:28,159
think it's where everything will head i

2868
01:35:30,149 --> 01:35:28,639
think it's

2869
01:35:32,709 --> 01:35:30,159
not it'd be nice if it was where

2870
01:35:36,070 --> 01:35:32,719
everything would head um

2871
01:35:36,790 --> 01:35:36,080
but you know so so anyway that's what i

2872
01:35:38,310 --> 01:35:36,800
would say about

2873
01:35:39,830 --> 01:35:38,320
about this and peer review is one of

2874
01:35:40,229 --> 01:35:39,840
those things where people either falsely

2875
01:35:41,590 --> 01:35:40,239
just

2876
01:35:43,590 --> 01:35:41,600
say like well where are the journal

2877
01:35:45,109 --> 01:35:43,600
articles and that that's just some gold

2878
01:35:46,950 --> 01:35:45,119
standard of evidence or whatever because

2879
01:35:48,790 --> 01:35:46,960
they have no clue how that system works

2880
01:35:50,470 --> 01:35:48,800
or they do know how that system works

2881
01:35:51,590 --> 01:35:50,480
and they're like well that doesn't mean

2882
01:35:53,669 --> 01:35:51,600
anything

2883
01:35:55,430 --> 01:35:53,679
um you know and so people have these

2884
01:35:57,109 --> 01:35:55,440
biases one way or the other so i thought

2885
01:35:58,390 --> 01:35:57,119
you know that was kind of a long ramble

2886
01:36:01,430 --> 01:35:58,400
there but i thought maybe it would

2887
01:36:02,790 --> 01:36:01,440
provide some context for people it did i

2888
01:36:05,910 --> 01:36:02,800
thought it was really

2889
01:36:07,109 --> 01:36:05,920
that's useful that is very useful uh and

2890
01:36:09,189 --> 01:36:07,119
well articulated

2891
01:36:11,510 --> 01:36:09,199
okay so we've been at this for a long

2892
01:36:11,990 --> 01:36:11,520
time it's time just flies by when i talk

2893
01:36:15,350 --> 01:36:12,000
to you

2894
01:36:18,149 --> 01:36:15,360
it's awesome tell folks about

2895
01:36:19,830 --> 01:36:18,159
the technology angle and both sides of

2896
01:36:21,750 --> 01:36:19,840
that you're always super excited about

2897
01:36:24,550 --> 01:36:21,760
it wow i'm going to be able to

2898
01:36:25,430 --> 01:36:24,560
help tens of thousands millions of

2899
01:36:27,109 --> 01:36:25,440
people

2900
01:36:28,550 --> 01:36:27,119
and i'm always a little skeptical with

2901
01:36:32,229 --> 01:36:28,560
uh oh yeah you know

2902
01:36:35,669 --> 01:36:33,669
i always reference you know gary

2903
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:35,679
schwartz and his soul phone at the

2904
01:36:41,669 --> 01:36:38,400
university of uh arizona which you know

2905
01:36:43,510 --> 01:36:41,679
probably you know just to to

2906
01:36:45,669 --> 01:36:43,520
i think it's good let me just make sure

2907
01:36:47,109 --> 01:36:45,679
i throw this on the table

2908
01:36:49,270 --> 01:36:47,119
so you can have this in the back your

2909
01:36:52,470 --> 01:36:49,280
mind so gary schwartz

2910
01:36:55,990 --> 01:36:52,480
extremely well credentialed academically

2911
01:36:58,070 --> 01:36:56,000
you know phd harvard rarely

2912
01:36:59,910 --> 01:36:58,080
does uh someone get a phd in the

2913
01:37:02,550 --> 01:36:59,920
professor before i went to

2914
01:37:03,910 --> 01:37:02,560
exactly it's very very rare that you

2915
01:37:04,550 --> 01:37:03,920
know you graduate from harvard and they

2916
01:37:06,070 --> 01:37:04,560
go wow

2917
01:37:08,310 --> 01:37:06,080
you're great let's make you ahead of the

2918
01:37:09,510 --> 01:37:08,320
department you know even down the line

2919
01:37:10,070 --> 01:37:09,520
even after you've done other things

2920
01:37:13,189 --> 01:37:10,080
because

2921
01:37:15,189 --> 01:37:13,199
it kind of looks a little too comfy but

2922
01:37:16,870 --> 01:37:15,199
and that yale head of the psychology and

2923
01:37:17,510 --> 01:37:16,880
psychiatry practice yeah all the right

2924
01:37:19,510 --> 01:37:17,520
credentials

2925
01:37:20,629 --> 01:37:19,520
of course he went on aldo rivera's show

2926
01:37:23,109 --> 01:37:20,639
and got

2927
01:37:24,310 --> 01:37:23,119
he got set back a couple of steps in his

2928
01:37:27,510 --> 01:37:24,320
career because

2929
01:37:28,790 --> 01:37:27,520
it looked to some people as if he was

2930
01:37:30,390 --> 01:37:28,800
you know in this after death

2931
01:37:31,750 --> 01:37:30,400
communication work which is what he got

2932
01:37:34,550 --> 01:37:31,760
involved with

2933
01:37:36,390 --> 01:37:34,560
that it gets very tricky in terms of the

2934
01:37:37,910 --> 01:37:36,400
relationships you have with subjects and

2935
01:37:38,709 --> 01:37:37,920
subjects families and all the rest of

2936
01:37:40,149 --> 01:37:38,719
that stuff

2937
01:37:42,390 --> 01:37:40,159
i don't think there was ever anything

2938
01:37:44,070 --> 01:37:42,400
truly inappropriate but it just didn't

2939
01:37:45,750 --> 01:37:44,080
sit well with people and he took a step

2940
01:37:46,470 --> 01:37:45,760
back but now gary's coming back on the

2941
01:37:49,990 --> 01:37:46,480
scene

2942
01:37:51,430 --> 01:37:50,000
with the soul phone no uh

2943
01:37:53,109 --> 01:37:51,440
intonation i didn't know that that's

2944
01:37:55,270 --> 01:37:53,119
interesting i have to look that up so

2945
01:37:56,950 --> 01:37:55,280
what you can do is now we have the

2946
01:37:58,870 --> 01:37:56,960
technology and the cost has come down

2947
01:38:01,430 --> 01:37:58,880
you can put a little photon beam

2948
01:38:03,270 --> 01:38:01,440
shoot that photon beam and you can ask

2949
01:38:08,149 --> 01:38:03,280
disincarnated spirits

2950
01:38:09,350 --> 01:38:08,159
interrupt that photon beam when they're

2951
01:38:12,310 --> 01:38:09,360
asked questions right

2952
01:38:14,310 --> 01:38:12,320
so i'm talking kind of uh gobbly

2953
01:38:15,030 --> 01:38:14,320
terms but basically you can now do

2954
01:38:17,990 --> 01:38:15,040
immediate

2955
01:38:19,510 --> 01:38:18,000
you can do medium readings and wow you

2956
01:38:22,470 --> 01:38:19,520
can evaluate

2957
01:38:24,070 --> 01:38:22,480
the response electronically with photon

2958
01:38:26,709 --> 01:38:24,080
beam which is super sensitive

2959
01:38:27,430 --> 01:38:26,719
they claim to be getting extraordinary

2960
01:38:29,109 --> 01:38:27,440
results

2961
01:38:30,550 --> 01:38:29,119
and that is something that you have to

2962
01:38:31,830 --> 01:38:30,560
take seriously because they can measure

2963
01:38:33,189 --> 01:38:31,840
that right i mean they can measure

2964
01:38:36,149 --> 01:38:33,199
whether that stuff happens

2965
01:38:36,950 --> 01:38:36,159
yeah the the point of all that being is

2966
01:38:40,550 --> 01:38:36,960
that

2967
01:38:44,070 --> 01:38:40,560
it it in a in a strange way

2968
01:38:46,950 --> 01:38:44,080
it's on way on the cutting edge of where

2969
01:38:47,350 --> 01:38:46,960
you may be heading with the technology

2970
01:38:50,870 --> 01:38:47,360
that

2971
01:38:52,709 --> 01:38:50,880
you're developing because ultimately

2972
01:38:55,830 --> 01:38:52,719
when we get to the spiritual

2973
01:38:58,870 --> 01:38:55,840
part of it it begs the question of

2974
01:39:02,229 --> 01:38:58,880
what are we really trying to do what is

2975
01:39:04,550 --> 01:39:02,239
our relationship with i don't know this

2976
01:39:05,189 --> 01:39:04,560
higher consciousness if we accept some

2977
01:39:07,510 --> 01:39:05,199
kind of

2978
01:39:09,510 --> 01:39:07,520
hierarchical structure to consciousness

2979
01:39:13,109 --> 01:39:09,520
what is our relationship to

2980
01:39:14,790 --> 01:39:13,119
god what is our obligation to the moral

2981
01:39:16,149 --> 01:39:14,800
imperative to do the right thing we

2982
01:39:19,510 --> 01:39:16,159
should ask the photon beam

2983
01:39:21,510 --> 01:39:19,520
sounds like well hey you know

2984
01:39:22,950 --> 01:39:21,520
you say that kids but you say that

2985
01:39:25,830 --> 01:39:22,960
kiddingly but they definitely

2986
01:39:26,870 --> 01:39:25,840
not really kind of curious yeah well

2987
01:39:30,229 --> 01:39:26,880
they're going to ask

2988
01:39:33,030 --> 01:39:30,239
and you know so let's

2989
01:39:33,830 --> 01:39:33,040
let's gary you know he's a serious guy

2990
01:39:36,149 --> 01:39:33,840
for sure

2991
01:39:37,910 --> 01:39:36,159
very spin that back to work to where you

2992
01:39:41,270 --> 01:39:37,920
are to where you are because

2993
01:39:42,149 --> 01:39:41,280
like that's that's really the next level

2994
01:39:44,390 --> 01:39:42,159
question

2995
01:39:45,430 --> 01:39:44,400
i think the first thing would be tell us

2996
01:39:48,229 --> 01:39:45,440
what you're doing

2997
01:39:49,430 --> 01:39:48,239
technology wise tell us right why you're

2998
01:39:52,229 --> 01:39:49,440
doing it because

2999
01:39:54,709 --> 01:39:52,239
hell i mean do it to make this shift

3000
01:39:58,310 --> 01:39:54,719
from them from an ego state-centered

3001
01:40:01,750 --> 01:39:58,320
culture to a fundamental well-being uh

3002
01:40:03,590 --> 01:40:01,760
centered culture we need that shift so

3003
01:40:05,109 --> 01:40:03,600
you know get the app as soon as you can

3004
01:40:07,109 --> 01:40:05,119
and get as many people on it

3005
01:40:08,629 --> 01:40:07,119
and then as a secondary point maybe

3006
01:40:11,109 --> 01:40:08,639
address how that

3007
01:40:14,149 --> 01:40:11,119
might fit into a larger spiritual

3008
01:40:17,669 --> 01:40:15,910
it's a great question what we're working

3009
01:40:18,629 --> 01:40:17,679
with is primarily transcranial

3010
01:40:20,830 --> 01:40:18,639
ultrasound

3011
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:20,840
which means exactly what it sounds like

3012
01:40:25,109 --> 01:40:22,960
transcranial going through the

3013
01:40:26,629 --> 01:40:25,119
skull without having to cut a hole in it

3014
01:40:29,669 --> 01:40:26,639
and

3015
01:40:32,390 --> 01:40:29,679
ultrasound meaning sound you know

3016
01:40:35,590 --> 01:40:32,400
certain frequency of sound wave

3017
01:40:38,870 --> 01:40:35,600
it's a very complex pattern of sound

3018
01:40:40,790 --> 01:40:38,880
and so it's not just like you know one

3019
01:40:42,470 --> 01:40:40,800
it's not like just 500 kilohertz or

3020
01:40:44,790 --> 01:40:42,480
something shot through the skull

3021
01:40:46,390 --> 01:40:44,800
it's modulated in ridiculously

3022
01:40:49,910 --> 01:40:46,400
sophisticated ways

3023
01:40:51,510 --> 01:40:49,920
um but that's the it's that's the basics

3024
01:40:53,030 --> 01:40:51,520
ultrasound is around us all the time

3025
01:40:54,790 --> 01:40:53,040
it's probably coming out of your phone

3026
01:40:55,669 --> 01:40:54,800
right now it's used by advertisers to

3027
01:40:58,310 --> 01:40:55,679
track us across

3028
01:40:59,669 --> 01:40:58,320
apps and stuff on our phones um we're

3029
01:41:00,709 --> 01:40:59,679
all sort of swimming in a sea of

3030
01:41:02,550 --> 01:41:00,719
ultrasound

3031
01:41:03,990 --> 01:41:02,560
environment of course everybody's

3032
01:41:05,510 --> 01:41:04,000
familiar with it from baby

3033
01:41:07,189 --> 01:41:05,520
monitoring you know you go and get the

3034
01:41:08,870 --> 01:41:07,199
ultrasound to see if your baby's

3035
01:41:10,310 --> 01:41:08,880
you know got all its arms and legs and

3036
01:41:13,669 --> 01:41:10,320
all of that kind of stuff

3037
01:41:14,709 --> 01:41:13,679
um and so this is just a different very

3038
01:41:18,470 --> 01:41:14,719
precise

3039
01:41:20,470 --> 01:41:18,480
ability to use a sound wave basically a

3040
01:41:21,510 --> 01:41:20,480
sound pressure wave to mechanically

3041
01:41:24,149 --> 01:41:21,520
perturbate

3042
01:41:24,629 --> 01:41:24,159
a very precise part or parts of the

3043
01:41:26,550 --> 01:41:24,639
brain

3044
01:41:27,910 --> 01:41:26,560
so it's a very simple simple old

3045
01:41:31,430 --> 01:41:27,920
technology

3046
01:41:33,270 --> 01:41:31,440
updated with really cutting-edge modern

3047
01:41:34,870 --> 01:41:33,280
ability to you know precisely target in

3048
01:41:36,790 --> 01:41:34,880
your brain and stuff like that

3049
01:41:38,070 --> 01:41:36,800
and the reason we're doing it is because

3050
01:41:38,950 --> 01:41:38,080
um you know one of the things you talked

3051
01:41:41,510 --> 01:41:38,960
about earlier was

3052
01:41:43,189 --> 01:41:41,520
network effects and one of the first

3053
01:41:44,830 --> 01:41:43,199
people that looked at network effects of

3054
01:41:46,070 --> 01:41:44,840
things like non-duality was zornia

3055
01:41:49,109 --> 01:41:46,080
cepavik

3056
01:41:52,629 --> 01:41:49,119
he's at nyu and he

3057
01:41:54,550 --> 01:41:52,639
basically was doing fmri work

3058
01:41:56,149 --> 01:41:54,560
and one of the things that he noticed

3059
01:41:57,189 --> 01:41:56,159
was that there was there seemed to be a

3060
01:42:00,149 --> 01:41:57,199
rewiring

3061
01:42:01,430 --> 01:42:00,159
that was going on in the brain of his uh

3062
01:42:03,030 --> 01:42:01,440
research subjects

3063
01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:03,040
and so he presented his important work

3064
01:42:06,229 --> 01:42:04,560
he presented that work for years it was

3065
01:42:07,510 --> 01:42:06,239
so important he just presented it all

3066
01:42:08,390 --> 01:42:07,520
over he got invited to present it all

3067
01:42:10,070 --> 01:42:08,400
over

3068
01:42:11,510 --> 01:42:10,080
um because that kind of thing just

3069
01:42:15,030 --> 01:42:11,520
hadn't been seen before

3070
01:42:17,750 --> 01:42:15,040
at that time um and so

3071
01:42:19,189 --> 01:42:17,760
we've had a pretty good indication for

3072
01:42:21,350 --> 01:42:19,199
10 years

3073
01:42:23,030 --> 01:42:21,360
about what areas would be ideal to hit

3074
01:42:25,750 --> 01:42:23,040
in the brain if we could get to them

3075
01:42:27,350 --> 01:42:25,760
with some sort of technology but we

3076
01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:27,360
haven't had the technology that could

3077
01:42:30,629 --> 01:42:28,880
get to them it's only in the last

3078
01:42:32,790 --> 01:42:30,639
couple of years that that technology has

3079
01:42:34,390 --> 01:42:32,800
matured enough that we can now

3080
01:42:35,830 --> 01:42:34,400
you know basically directly stimulate

3081
01:42:37,430 --> 01:42:35,840
those regions in the brain and so that's

3082
01:42:38,870 --> 01:42:37,440
what we've begun the process of really

3083
01:42:40,390 --> 01:42:38,880
systematically doing

3084
01:42:43,030 --> 01:42:40,400
we've already got a lot of money in it

3085
01:42:45,750 --> 01:42:43,040
we've got over a million dollars

3086
01:42:47,189 --> 01:42:45,760
that has been invested in this effort

3087
01:42:48,950 --> 01:42:47,199
there are all kinds of other people at

3088
01:42:51,669 --> 01:42:48,960
other institutions that have

3089
01:42:53,109 --> 01:42:51,679
you know poured tons of money into this

3090
01:42:54,790 --> 01:42:53,119
technology as well they're not trying to

3091
01:42:56,629 --> 01:42:54,800
look at it you know to see who can

3092
01:42:58,390 --> 01:42:56,639
transition to fundamental well-being

3093
01:43:00,629 --> 01:42:58,400
they're doing things like getting rid of

3094
01:43:03,430 --> 01:43:00,639
epilepsy waking up people from comas

3095
01:43:05,510 --> 01:43:03,440
you know solving addiction problems uh

3096
01:43:07,189 --> 01:43:05,520
there's all sorts of things that have

3097
01:43:08,790 --> 01:43:07,199
that there are all sorts of places that

3098
01:43:09,990 --> 01:43:08,800
people of neuroscientists have wanted to

3099
01:43:12,390 --> 01:43:10,000
stimulate the human brain

3100
01:43:13,830 --> 01:43:12,400
for a long time based on monkeys and

3101
01:43:16,310 --> 01:43:13,840
rats and other things that you could do

3102
01:43:17,750 --> 01:43:16,320
more invasive work on

3103
01:43:19,910 --> 01:43:17,760
that just hasn't been possible to

3104
01:43:22,470 --> 01:43:19,920
translate into humans yet and

3105
01:43:23,830 --> 01:43:22,480
we're at a golden age in terms of brain

3106
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:23,840
stimulation because of this new

3107
01:43:26,470 --> 01:43:24,800
technology

3108
01:43:28,310 --> 01:43:26,480
we have all of these maps in our cases

3109
01:43:29,910 --> 01:43:28,320
we have these maps of what happens in

3110
01:43:31,590 --> 01:43:29,920
the human brain for fundamental

3111
01:43:32,870 --> 01:43:31,600
well-being other people have maps for

3112
01:43:34,470 --> 01:43:32,880
addiction and for

3113
01:43:35,910 --> 01:43:34,480
depression and you know treatment

3114
01:43:38,070 --> 01:43:35,920
resistant depression

3115
01:43:39,590 --> 01:43:38,080
and things like that and so you have an

3116
01:43:41,510 --> 01:43:39,600
alzheimer's you know there's a guy at

3117
01:43:43,030 --> 01:43:41,520
ucla working on alzheimer's

3118
01:43:45,270 --> 01:43:43,040
making great progress on alzheimer's for

3119
01:43:47,109 --> 01:43:45,280
instance um and so you've got

3120
01:43:48,149 --> 01:43:47,119
this this technology and that's what

3121
01:43:49,189 --> 01:43:48,159
we're doing with it it's and we're

3122
01:43:52,629 --> 01:43:49,199
getting great effects

3123
01:43:55,830 --> 01:43:52,639
frankly um this was really pioneered by

3124
01:43:57,189 --> 01:43:55,840
a friend of mine um jay sanguinetti

3125
01:43:58,310 --> 01:43:57,199
who at the time was at the university of

3126
01:44:00,629 --> 01:43:58,320
new mexico and now he's back where he

3127
01:44:03,109 --> 01:44:00,639
got his phd at the university of arizona

3128
01:44:04,790 --> 01:44:03,119
um with shenzhen young a long time

3129
01:44:07,270 --> 01:44:04,800
meditator

3130
01:44:08,790 --> 01:44:07,280
and so as part of the original project

3131
01:44:10,870 --> 01:44:08,800
um we put together

3132
01:44:12,709 --> 01:44:10,880
um you know the equipment we brought jay

3133
01:44:14,950 --> 01:44:12,719
in he left his job at new mexico

3134
01:44:16,310 --> 01:44:14,960
came to silicon valley for a period of

3135
01:44:18,070 --> 01:44:16,320
months

3136
01:44:19,750 --> 01:44:18,080
and participated and sort of got us kind

3137
01:44:22,310 --> 01:44:19,760
of up and running if you will

3138
01:44:24,470 --> 01:44:22,320
in the nub of this project we brought in

3139
01:44:26,550 --> 01:44:24,480
sanjay manchanda who's another

3140
01:44:28,149 --> 01:44:26,560
one of the world's leading brain experts

3141
01:44:30,790 --> 01:44:28,159
in terms of brain stimulation

3142
01:44:32,310 --> 01:44:30,800
and specifically fundamental well-being

3143
01:44:33,669 --> 01:44:32,320
jay wasn't so much on the fundamental

3144
01:44:35,669 --> 01:44:33,679
well-being side of the fence

3145
01:44:36,870 --> 01:44:35,679
but he had done this work with shenzhen

3146
01:44:38,310 --> 01:44:36,880
and he had these areas that he was

3147
01:44:39,830 --> 01:44:38,320
targeting and we had these other areas

3148
01:44:40,550 --> 01:44:39,840
that from our work that we wanted to

3149
01:44:42,229 --> 01:44:40,560
target

3150
01:44:45,109 --> 01:44:42,239
uh and so we've just kind of gone from

3151
01:44:46,950 --> 01:44:45,119
there over the last year or two

3152
01:44:48,790 --> 01:44:46,960
and we you know all i can say is we're

3153
01:44:50,229 --> 01:44:48,800
making progress as fast as we can we're

3154
01:44:51,990 --> 01:44:50,239
making great progress if you're in

3155
01:44:53,510 --> 01:44:52,000
fundamental well-being we can basically

3156
01:44:54,629 --> 01:44:53,520
very reliably push you deeper into

3157
01:44:56,070 --> 01:44:54,639
fundamental well-being that's what

3158
01:44:57,750 --> 01:44:56,080
shenzhen liked about it

3159
01:44:59,590 --> 01:44:57,760
um if you're not in fundamental

3160
01:45:02,870 --> 01:44:59,600
well-being we're having

3161
01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:02,880
um you know pretty good success with

3162
01:45:06,790 --> 01:45:05,600
um helping people to reach there and i

3163
01:45:09,109 --> 01:45:06,800
think it's probably

3164
01:45:10,229 --> 01:45:09,119
going to be most widely applied as a

3165
01:45:12,390 --> 01:45:10,239
meditation aid

3166
01:45:14,229 --> 01:45:12,400
um it can really you know help somebody

3167
01:45:15,910 --> 01:45:14,239
to just much more deeply meditate right

3168
01:45:17,270 --> 01:45:15,920
off the bat so you know that trial and

3169
01:45:18,790 --> 01:45:17,280
error thing with you know well i tried

3170
01:45:19,510 --> 01:45:18,800
meditation that didn't really work for

3171
01:45:21,270 --> 01:45:19,520
me

3172
01:45:22,629 --> 01:45:21,280
my you know my thoughts didn't slow down

3173
01:45:24,229 --> 01:45:22,639
or whatever and this is sort of one of

3174
01:45:26,629 --> 01:45:24,239
those things you can kind of zap

3175
01:45:28,310 --> 01:45:26,639
and the thoughts do stop or slow down in

3176
01:45:29,750 --> 01:45:28,320
fact so much so that ordinary people get

3177
01:45:31,750 --> 01:45:29,760
kind of freaked out by it

3178
01:45:33,109 --> 01:45:31,760
because they've never had the thoughts

3179
01:45:35,270 --> 01:45:33,119
going on in their head right

3180
01:45:36,629 --> 01:45:35,280
and they kind of panic they're like oh

3181
01:45:39,669 --> 01:45:36,639
crap you know what

3182
01:45:40,070 --> 01:45:39,679
is that going to come back you know you

3183
01:45:43,910 --> 01:45:40,080
know

3184
01:45:44,790 --> 01:45:43,920
because a light bulb just went off

3185
01:45:47,510 --> 01:45:44,800
because i remember

3186
01:45:48,229 --> 01:45:47,520
a conversation that we had a long time

3187
01:45:50,950 --> 01:45:48,239
ago

3188
01:45:52,390 --> 01:45:50,960
when we met face to face in silicon

3189
01:45:53,830 --> 01:45:52,400
valley and i was kind of walking along

3190
01:45:55,830 --> 01:45:53,840
the parking lot

3191
01:45:57,109 --> 01:45:55,840
and you said something always stuck with

3192
01:46:00,550 --> 01:45:57,119
me you go

3193
01:46:02,870 --> 01:46:00,560
no they really want me for my data

3194
01:46:03,830 --> 01:46:02,880
and the way i connect that with what

3195
01:46:06,870 --> 01:46:03,840
you're saying now

3196
01:46:10,310 --> 01:46:06,880
is that if someone had

3197
01:46:11,669 --> 01:46:10,320
the technology to do brain stimulation

3198
01:46:13,750 --> 01:46:11,679
in the way that you're talking about and

3199
01:46:16,950 --> 01:46:13,760
it had certain effects

3200
01:46:19,510 --> 01:46:16,960
what you'd need is to be able to

3201
01:46:20,550 --> 01:46:19,520
have the kind of neural correlates to

3202
01:46:22,070 --> 01:46:20,560
map that to

3203
01:46:24,310 --> 01:46:22,080
you know you'd need to be able to say

3204
01:46:26,470 --> 01:46:24,320
okay what does that mean in terms of

3205
01:46:28,229 --> 01:46:26,480
practically in this case hopefully you

3206
01:46:32,870 --> 01:46:28,239
are

3207
01:46:33,510 --> 01:46:32,880
not an instrument of evil we can only

3208
01:46:36,709 --> 01:46:33,520
hope

3209
01:46:38,390 --> 01:46:36,719
but you have the data on what this

3210
01:46:39,990 --> 01:46:38,400
effect and you have enough of it where

3211
01:46:42,550 --> 01:46:40,000
you can say wow here

3212
01:46:44,070 --> 01:46:42,560
are several hundred people we could look

3213
01:46:45,990 --> 01:46:44,080
at and we could look at those neural

3214
01:46:49,270 --> 01:46:46,000
correlates and we could come to some

3215
01:46:51,030 --> 01:46:49,280
do you want to speak to to that yeah

3216
01:46:52,790 --> 01:46:51,040
that's been a great benefit of ours is

3217
01:46:56,470 --> 01:46:52,800
that we have the maps

3218
01:46:59,030 --> 01:46:56,480
in many ways and so um

3219
01:47:00,310 --> 01:46:59,040
the maps plus the technology and you

3220
01:47:01,910 --> 01:47:00,320
know it's not that we're

3221
01:47:03,350 --> 01:47:01,920
like holding them a secret or something

3222
01:47:04,310 --> 01:47:03,360
i mean some of these things zorn's

3223
01:47:05,910 --> 01:47:04,320
published his stuff

3224
01:47:07,350 --> 01:47:05,920
you know there's plenty of the stuff and

3225
01:47:08,310 --> 01:47:07,360
there's plenty of the useful map in

3226
01:47:11,430 --> 01:47:08,320
there

3227
01:47:13,030 --> 01:47:11,440
um followed on by that was uh judson

3228
01:47:14,629 --> 01:47:13,040
brewer

3229
01:47:16,070 --> 01:47:14,639
who is you know somebody that's in our

3230
01:47:18,229 --> 01:47:16,080
orbit

3231
01:47:20,229 --> 01:47:18,239
who was at yale at the time yale mad now

3232
01:47:22,310 --> 01:47:20,239
he's at the university of massachusetts

3233
01:47:24,790 --> 01:47:22,320
it's kind of like the main guy at john

3234
01:47:27,990 --> 01:47:24,800
kabat-zinn's thing

3235
01:47:32,070 --> 01:47:28,000
and he did a lot of important work

3236
01:47:34,470 --> 01:47:32,080
with both fmri and eeg and neurofeedback

3237
01:47:35,430 --> 01:47:34,480
both with fmri and eeg to verify those

3238
01:47:36,950 --> 01:47:35,440
regions because

3239
01:47:38,470 --> 01:47:36,960
it's one thing to have a map like zorin

3240
01:47:39,990 --> 01:47:38,480
could get a map but he didn't have the

3241
01:47:42,390 --> 01:47:40,000
ability to provide

3242
01:47:44,629 --> 01:47:42,400
real-time feedback and when judd was

3243
01:47:45,830 --> 01:47:44,639
doing this around 2009 i could be

3244
01:47:46,550 --> 01:47:45,840
remembering that slightly off but

3245
01:47:50,070 --> 01:47:46,560
somewhere in that

3246
01:47:52,070 --> 01:47:50,080
range of years he had one of the first

3247
01:47:53,669 --> 01:47:52,080
systems that could do real-time feedback

3248
01:47:55,109 --> 01:47:53,679
and so you could say okay and now we're

3249
01:47:55,830 --> 01:47:55,119
going to draw a circle around that area

3250
01:47:57,750 --> 01:47:55,840
of the brain

3251
01:47:59,189 --> 01:47:57,760
and i'm going to show you a chart a bar

3252
01:48:00,870 --> 01:47:59,199
that goes up and down

3253
01:48:02,629 --> 01:48:00,880
and i want you to make the bar go up or

3254
01:48:04,709 --> 01:48:02,639
i want you to make the bar go down

3255
01:48:07,270 --> 01:48:04,719
and so he was able to in you know

3256
01:48:09,750 --> 01:48:07,280
non-meditators and meditators and

3257
01:48:10,550 --> 01:48:09,760
pnsc people and non-pnsc people see what

3258
01:48:11,990 --> 01:48:10,560
happens

3259
01:48:13,750 --> 01:48:12,000
when you try to use it with

3260
01:48:16,470 --> 01:48:13,760
neurofeedback

3261
01:48:17,830 --> 01:48:16,480
and verify really that okay yeah it

3262
01:48:18,550 --> 01:48:17,840
turns out that part of the brain is

3263
01:48:20,070 --> 01:48:18,560
related

3264
01:48:21,270 --> 01:48:20,080
to fundamental well-being and so you

3265
01:48:22,950 --> 01:48:21,280
know somebody that's in fundamental

3266
01:48:24,709 --> 01:48:22,960
well-being that messes with it says well

3267
01:48:25,830 --> 01:48:24,719
i have less spaciousness or less

3268
01:48:27,430 --> 01:48:25,840
whatever i have more

3269
01:48:29,030 --> 01:48:27,440
self-referential thoughts or whatever

3270
01:48:29,990 --> 01:48:29,040
when i do when i make the bar go that

3271
01:48:31,910 --> 01:48:30,000
way judd you know

3272
01:48:33,030 --> 01:48:31,920
that sort of work right really important

3273
01:48:36,709 --> 01:48:33,040
groundbreaking

3274
01:48:37,030 --> 01:48:36,719
work um and so a lot of the stuff is out

3275
01:48:39,910 --> 01:48:37,040
there

3276
01:48:41,109 --> 01:48:39,920
it is published uh at this point people

3277
01:48:43,030 --> 01:48:41,119
people can find that

3278
01:48:44,310 --> 01:48:43,040
uh the devices i think are relatively

3279
01:48:45,590 --> 01:48:44,320
inexpensive frankly you could build one

3280
01:48:46,870 --> 01:48:45,600
of these things for probably a thousand

3281
01:48:49,990 --> 01:48:46,880
bucks

3282
01:48:51,430 --> 01:48:50,000
if you really wanted to ours cost

3283
01:48:53,109 --> 01:48:51,440
you know our cheapest one is i think

3284
01:48:55,990 --> 01:48:53,119
about forty thousand

3285
01:48:57,030 --> 01:48:56,000
um and it goes into the hundreds of

3286
01:48:59,669 --> 01:48:57,040
thousands

3287
01:49:00,310 --> 01:48:59,679
frankly how would those be productized

3288
01:49:02,870 --> 01:49:00,320
what do you see

3289
01:49:04,870 --> 01:49:02,880
it's a good question i think it's one of

3290
01:49:06,229 --> 01:49:04,880
the the fda is really struggling with

3291
01:49:07,510 --> 01:49:06,239
this the regulatory bodies are

3292
01:49:09,510 --> 01:49:07,520
struggling with this

3293
01:49:10,870 --> 01:49:09,520
um i think they're not sure what to do

3294
01:49:12,950 --> 01:49:10,880
with it um

3295
01:49:14,070 --> 01:49:12,960
and so right now you know you can only

3296
01:49:16,229 --> 01:49:14,080
get this in a research

3297
01:49:17,270 --> 01:49:16,239
lab it has to be associated with

3298
01:49:19,669 --> 01:49:17,280
research

3299
01:49:20,870 --> 01:49:19,679
in some way i don't last i'd heard the i

3300
01:49:23,030 --> 01:49:20,880
was talking to the guy who had an

3301
01:49:24,229 --> 01:49:23,040
offer from the fda to come and run their

3302
01:49:26,229 --> 01:49:24,239
team

3303
01:49:27,990 --> 01:49:26,239
um and they had like the fda had like a

3304
01:49:30,229 --> 01:49:28,000
placeholder team in place that was like

3305
01:49:31,669 --> 01:49:30,239
run by a dentist or something

3306
01:49:33,669 --> 01:49:31,679
and so i mean they were just kind of

3307
01:49:35,109 --> 01:49:33,679
spinning it up you know and i was trying

3308
01:49:36,550 --> 01:49:35,119
to talk to i know this guy well

3309
01:49:38,629 --> 01:49:36,560
and i have a tremendous amount of

3310
01:49:40,470 --> 01:49:38,639
respect for his work and i was trying to

3311
01:49:42,070 --> 01:49:40,480
talk him into taking the top you know

3312
01:49:43,669 --> 01:49:42,080
everybody has a great life he has a

3313
01:49:46,229 --> 01:49:43,679
fantastic career

3314
01:49:47,030 --> 01:49:46,239
you know he's an md at stanford uh where

3315
01:49:49,109 --> 01:49:47,040
i met him

3316
01:49:50,870 --> 01:49:49,119
um he's basically sat in one of my

3317
01:49:52,470 --> 01:49:50,880
classes at stanford uh because he was

3318
01:49:53,910 --> 01:49:52,480
interested in fundamental well-being and

3319
01:49:54,950 --> 01:49:53,920
transformed the technology and stuff and

3320
01:49:57,109 --> 01:49:54,960
so he

3321
01:49:59,109 --> 01:49:57,119
even though he was like a you know

3322
01:50:01,990 --> 01:49:59,119
pretty significant md at stanford he

3323
01:50:04,709 --> 01:50:02,000
basically came and sat through our class

3324
01:50:06,629 --> 01:50:04,719
which is how i met him um and so you

3325
01:50:07,510 --> 01:50:06,639
know it's a hard sell right to say oh

3326
01:50:10,950 --> 01:50:07,520
you should leave

3327
01:50:13,750 --> 01:50:10,960
you know paradise basically you know a

3328
01:50:14,310 --> 01:50:13,760
paradise of a career to go struggle

3329
01:50:17,669 --> 01:50:14,320
through

3330
01:50:19,669 --> 01:50:17,679
bureaucracy at the fda so that this gets

3331
01:50:20,950 --> 01:50:19,679
done right but to us you know and last i

3332
01:50:21,350 --> 01:50:20,960
heard he was thinking about it it was

3333
01:50:25,510 --> 01:50:21,360
you know

3334
01:50:27,109 --> 01:50:25,520
he's kind of locked into a contract he

3335
01:50:29,189 --> 01:50:27,119
wasn't sure he could get out of

3336
01:50:30,550 --> 01:50:29,199
uh that had another year or two on it i

3337
01:50:32,310 --> 01:50:30,560
wasn't sure if the fda would wait around

3338
01:50:35,430 --> 01:50:32,320
that long there were other concerns

3339
01:50:36,470 --> 01:50:35,440
but it's more of a regulatory thing i

3340
01:50:39,270 --> 01:50:36,480
think at this point

3341
01:50:41,030 --> 01:50:39,280
than anything else and the regulatory

3342
01:50:41,990 --> 01:50:41,040
bodies in the major countries of the

3343
01:50:43,430 --> 01:50:42,000
west at least

3344
01:50:44,390 --> 01:50:43,440
of the developed world have to figure

3345
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:44,400
out what they're going to do with this

3346
01:50:46,470 --> 01:50:45,440
which means you're going to see this

3347
01:50:49,189 --> 01:50:46,480
being used

3348
01:50:50,790 --> 01:50:49,199
like mushrooms in mexico and you know

3349
01:50:52,790 --> 01:50:50,800
stuff like that

3350
01:50:54,310 --> 01:50:52,800
before you're able to have it on the

3351
01:50:57,669 --> 01:50:54,320
corner store

3352
01:50:59,430 --> 01:50:57,679
you know and lost out there i'm glad i'm

3353
01:51:00,790 --> 01:50:59,440
30 miles from the border man

3354
01:51:02,950 --> 01:51:00,800
that's because that's the first thing i

3355
01:51:04,629 --> 01:51:02,960
thought i said tijuana man we're gonna

3356
01:51:05,350 --> 01:51:04,639
we're gonna get one going in tijuana and

3357
01:51:06,790 --> 01:51:05,360
yeah

3358
01:51:08,470 --> 01:51:06,800
you know seriously we're thinking about

3359
01:51:09,910 --> 01:51:08,480
this in china we're thinking about this

3360
01:51:11,270 --> 01:51:09,920
in mexico we're thinking we've got

3361
01:51:12,629 --> 01:51:11,280
partners in different places in the

3362
01:51:14,790 --> 01:51:12,639
world who are willing to put this

3363
01:51:16,870 --> 01:51:14,800
technology in their centers

3364
01:51:18,709 --> 01:51:16,880
um and get a much larger number of

3365
01:51:20,629 --> 01:51:18,719
people through it we the safety date is

3366
01:51:22,149 --> 01:51:20,639
there at this point it's not a concern

3367
01:51:24,470 --> 01:51:22,159
and you wouldn't let you know some

3368
01:51:27,109 --> 01:51:24,480
random person throw this on your head

3369
01:51:28,390 --> 01:51:27,119
um but you know qualified as jay said in

3370
01:51:29,830 --> 01:51:28,400
his presentation of the transfer

3371
01:51:31,669 --> 01:51:29,840
conference a couple years ago keep in

3372
01:51:33,669 --> 01:51:31,679
mind that you know jeffrey and sanjay

3373
01:51:35,189 --> 01:51:33,679
and i all have phds in this

3374
01:51:37,669 --> 01:51:35,199
like you don't necessarily want to try

3375
01:51:39,750 --> 01:51:37,679
this at home yet um but there are plenty

3376
01:51:41,109 --> 01:51:39,760
of phds with that skill level to hire

3377
01:51:43,109 --> 01:51:41,119
you know they could go

3378
01:51:45,189 --> 01:51:43,119
they could go do it you know in a place

3379
01:51:47,990 --> 01:51:45,199
like mexico or in a place like

3380
01:51:49,430 --> 01:51:48,000
china or uh in you know in in some of

3381
01:51:50,390 --> 01:51:49,440
these less regulated environments and

3382
01:51:51,270 --> 01:51:50,400
they're probably going to get the

3383
01:51:53,830 --> 01:51:51,280
benefits of this

3384
01:51:55,430 --> 01:51:53,840
way ahead of as often happens you know

3385
01:51:57,830 --> 01:51:55,440
with technologies and things

3386
01:51:59,189 --> 01:51:57,840
way ahead of when we get it in the west

3387
01:52:01,030 --> 01:51:59,199
so jeffrey one final

3388
01:52:03,270 --> 01:52:01,040
topic area and it's huge one we could

3389
01:52:05,189 --> 01:52:03,280
spend another hour

3390
01:52:06,629 --> 01:52:05,199
talking about that but i did kind of tee

3391
01:52:09,830 --> 01:52:06,639
it up a little bit with

3392
01:52:13,030 --> 01:52:09,840
the gary schwartz

3393
01:52:15,669 --> 01:52:13,040
thing because you know

3394
01:52:16,629 --> 01:52:15,679
you stay in your lane and i'm glad you

3395
01:52:19,030 --> 01:52:16,639
stay in your lane

3396
01:52:20,310 --> 01:52:19,040
in terms of this you know fundamental

3397
01:52:23,750 --> 01:52:20,320
well-being kind of thing

3398
01:52:25,990 --> 01:52:23,760
and very much from a traditional

3399
01:52:28,070 --> 01:52:26,000
perspective regarding consciousness so

3400
01:52:30,470 --> 01:52:28,080
you don't get into philosophical debate

3401
01:52:32,229 --> 01:52:30,480
about whether consciousness is

3402
01:52:33,910 --> 01:52:32,239
an epiphenomenon of the brain i mean you

3403
01:52:37,109 --> 01:52:33,920
just kind of step around

3404
01:52:38,629 --> 01:52:37,119
all that it doesn't directly impact your

3405
01:52:41,830 --> 01:52:38,639
work you can kind of be

3406
01:52:42,790 --> 01:52:41,840
neutral you can be agnostic on it the

3407
01:52:45,109 --> 01:52:42,800
problem

3408
01:52:46,709 --> 01:52:45,119
with extended consciousness and i use

3409
01:52:47,109 --> 01:52:46,719
the term extended consciousness i mean i

3410
01:52:48,709 --> 01:52:47,119
think

3411
01:52:50,070 --> 01:52:48,719
we all know what it means i mean you're

3412
01:52:51,270 --> 01:52:50,080
doing work unconsciousness you know

3413
01:52:52,470 --> 01:52:51,280
what's going on in your brain whether

3414
01:52:53,750 --> 01:52:52,480
it's really in your brain or not

3415
01:52:56,310 --> 01:52:53,760
but then we have all this phenomena that

3416
01:52:58,149 --> 01:52:56,320
we can't really

3417
01:53:00,229 --> 01:52:58,159
hey we have near death experience we

3418
01:53:00,870 --> 01:53:00,239
have et encounters and you know you

3419
01:53:02,709 --> 01:53:00,880
can't just

3420
01:53:04,709 --> 01:53:02,719
blow by et encounters anymore because

3421
01:53:06,629 --> 01:53:04,719
that is a major agenda

3422
01:53:09,109 --> 01:53:06,639
item politically it's in the new york

3423
01:53:12,149 --> 01:53:09,119
times now over and over again

3424
01:53:12,870 --> 01:53:12,159
it's on all the major you know what

3425
01:53:14,470 --> 01:53:12,880
should we do

3426
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:14,480
and we right off the coast of san

3427
01:53:18,709 --> 01:53:17,119
francis san diego where i live

3428
01:53:20,550 --> 01:53:18,719
we have the tic tac things and here they

3429
01:53:22,390 --> 01:53:20,560
are in the dod saying yes those really

3430
01:53:25,750 --> 01:53:22,400
are our videos we don't know

3431
01:53:27,430 --> 01:53:25,760
so they're whoever they are is

3432
01:53:29,430 --> 01:53:27,440
pushing that issue to the forefront

3433
01:53:31,589 --> 01:53:29,440
where we can't even pretend that that's

3434
01:53:32,950 --> 01:53:31,599
somehow not on the equation but you know

3435
01:53:35,589 --> 01:53:32,960
for a long time we've had

3436
01:53:36,790 --> 01:53:35,599
rick strassmann you know formerly i

3437
01:53:38,709 --> 01:53:36,800
don't know if he's still in new mexico

3438
01:53:40,790 --> 01:53:38,719
or not you know doing dmt experiments

3439
01:53:43,109 --> 01:53:40,800
that are clearly going into this

3440
01:53:44,950 --> 01:53:43,119
extended realm the shamanic realm that

3441
01:53:47,910 --> 01:53:44,960
we've always heard about and the

3442
01:53:49,350 --> 01:53:47,920
theogens realm and all that stuff you've

3443
01:53:52,390 --> 01:53:49,360
stayed out of that

3444
01:53:54,229 --> 01:53:52,400
which i can understand but the

3445
01:53:57,910 --> 01:53:54,239
implications for that

3446
01:54:00,470 --> 01:53:57,920
are kind of huge in terms of what you're

3447
01:54:03,109 --> 01:54:00,480
doing because it recasts

3448
01:54:04,550 --> 01:54:03,119
our understanding of what is the meaning

3449
01:54:07,430 --> 01:54:04,560
behind

3450
01:54:07,990 --> 01:54:07,440
you know what it would mean to be a

3451
01:54:11,189 --> 01:54:08,000
little

3452
01:54:13,669 --> 01:54:11,199
less fundamentally discontented you know

3453
01:54:15,030 --> 01:54:13,679
and what that means traditionally as

3454
01:54:16,149 --> 01:54:15,040
we've understood it in terms of the

3455
01:54:19,510 --> 01:54:16,159
wisdom traditions

3456
01:54:23,189 --> 01:54:19,520
in terms of our communing with some

3457
01:54:25,830 --> 01:54:23,199
greater sense of purpose so

3458
01:54:26,470 --> 01:54:25,840
i guess two questions the first is just

3459
01:54:29,830 --> 01:54:26,480
tackling

3460
01:54:32,790 --> 01:54:29,840
that in general and then specifically

3461
01:54:34,629 --> 01:54:32,800
i'm always intrigued about the the

3462
01:54:36,550 --> 01:54:34,639
technology angle to that

3463
01:54:38,149 --> 01:54:36,560
because now you're kind of saying you

3464
01:54:39,350 --> 01:54:38,159
know like i love the soul phone thing

3465
01:54:40,790 --> 01:54:39,360
because everyone gets it right from the

3466
01:54:42,550 --> 01:54:40,800
beginning you know it's like

3467
01:54:44,470 --> 01:54:42,560
and it raises the same question you know

3468
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:44,480
what god needs our help you know god's

3469
01:54:46,709 --> 01:54:45,760
up there and he wants to get a message

3470
01:54:49,350 --> 01:54:46,719
to you but

3471
01:54:49,990 --> 01:54:49,360
he can't until gary gets the cell phone

3472
01:54:51,669 --> 01:54:50,000
going

3473
01:54:54,070 --> 01:54:51,679
and i guess the same thing could be said

3474
01:54:56,149 --> 01:54:54,080
for your work you know it's like

3475
01:54:57,750 --> 01:54:56,159
really god wants you to be awakened but

3476
01:54:59,270 --> 01:54:57,760
unless you take this course

3477
01:55:00,950 --> 01:54:59,280
you know he's really not going to let it

3478
01:55:02,470 --> 01:55:00,960
happen kind of thing

3479
01:55:05,189 --> 01:55:02,480
i'm not saying you have to address that

3480
01:55:06,790 --> 01:55:05,199
straight on but you get that that

3481
01:55:08,550 --> 01:55:06,800
would if someone thought about it

3482
01:55:12,629 --> 01:55:08,560
philosophically that would

3483
01:55:16,390 --> 01:55:14,390
altered you know altered states of

3484
01:55:19,910 --> 01:55:16,400
consciousness is a huge field

3485
01:55:20,870 --> 01:55:19,920
for sure and i think from our

3486
01:55:28,629 --> 01:55:20,880
perspective

3487
01:55:32,310 --> 01:55:28,639
um the last

3488
01:55:35,910 --> 01:55:32,320
15 years i would say have

3489
01:55:38,870 --> 01:55:35,920
removed a lot of the mystical

3490
01:55:40,629 --> 01:55:38,880
from this right you know i mean why is

3491
01:55:43,189 --> 01:55:40,639
it that we think about

3492
01:55:46,149 --> 01:55:43,199
fundamental well-being in a mystical or

3493
01:55:48,149 --> 01:55:46,159
a magical way in the first place for the

3494
01:55:49,750 --> 01:55:48,159
most part it's because of claims that

3495
01:55:53,109 --> 01:55:49,760
were made about it

3496
01:55:54,709 --> 01:55:53,119
by religious traditions or spiritual

3497
01:55:57,830 --> 01:55:54,719
traditions

3498
01:56:01,030 --> 01:55:57,840
or whatever else you know

3499
01:56:04,550 --> 01:56:01,040
and i think we all a tremendous amount

3500
01:56:07,350 --> 01:56:04,560
of debt really to those institutions

3501
01:56:09,270 --> 01:56:07,360
which through the rise and fall of

3502
01:56:10,229 --> 01:56:09,280
empires we're cultural carriers of the

3503
01:56:12,790 --> 01:56:10,239
knowledge

3504
01:56:14,629 --> 01:56:12,800
that you can have this you know

3505
01:56:18,550 --> 01:56:14,639
fundamental contentment

3506
01:56:23,990 --> 01:56:18,560
if you will uh as a part of your life

3507
01:56:27,669 --> 01:56:24,000
but i would the more i go into it

3508
01:56:30,310 --> 01:56:27,679
the less mystical uh it really seems

3509
01:56:32,790 --> 01:56:30,320
to me and i think to some degree that's

3510
01:56:35,109 --> 01:56:32,800
a problem on the spiritual salesmanship

3511
01:56:36,870 --> 01:56:35,119
side you know i get the the position

3512
01:56:37,750 --> 01:56:36,880
that a lot of those people are in right

3513
01:56:41,030 --> 01:56:37,760
i mean it would have been

3514
01:56:42,470 --> 01:56:41,040
really really really easy for us to fall

3515
01:56:44,070 --> 01:56:42,480
down a slippery slope

3516
01:56:47,270 --> 01:56:44,080
over the course of this right i'm when

3517
01:56:49,830 --> 01:56:47,280
i'm trying to compete for your attention

3518
01:56:53,430 --> 01:56:49,840
with fundamental well-being and

3519
01:56:57,109 --> 01:56:53,440
fundamental well-being is something that

3520
01:56:59,350 --> 01:56:57,119
probably isn't going to lead to

3521
01:57:00,390 --> 01:56:59,360
you know the gates of heaven opening its

3522
01:57:02,870 --> 01:57:00,400
riches to you

3523
01:57:03,750 --> 01:57:02,880
or you know you're not going to have a

3524
01:57:06,870 --> 01:57:03,760
harem

3525
01:57:08,870 --> 01:57:06,880
of the blue

3526
01:57:10,629 --> 01:57:08,880
if you know sort of you're doing it

3527
01:57:12,709 --> 01:57:10,639
because you think it'll be better for

3528
01:57:13,830 --> 01:57:12,719
sex or relationships or we're really

3529
01:57:15,109 --> 01:57:13,840
talking about two different

3530
01:57:16,390 --> 01:57:15,119
two different things here and i think

3531
01:57:17,350 --> 01:57:16,400
you put your finger on it at the

3532
01:57:20,229 --> 01:57:17,360
beginning

3533
01:57:21,270 --> 01:57:20,239
which is the mystical but i think we got

3534
01:57:24,629 --> 01:57:21,280
to get to

3535
01:57:27,430 --> 01:57:24,639
a kind of fundamental ground level

3536
01:57:28,870 --> 01:57:27,440
about whether there is such a thing as

3537
01:57:30,310 --> 01:57:28,880
extended consciousness

3538
01:57:32,709 --> 01:57:30,320
you know i spent so much time in

3539
01:57:35,350 --> 01:57:32,719
near-death experience science

3540
01:57:36,070 --> 01:57:35,360
because i think it gets us there at this

3541
01:57:39,030 --> 01:57:36,080
point

3542
01:57:40,950 --> 01:57:39,040
there is not a serious credible

3543
01:57:42,870 --> 01:57:40,960
near-death experience researcher

3544
01:57:45,109 --> 01:57:42,880
who doesn't maintain that consciousness

3545
01:57:46,950 --> 01:57:45,119
extends beyond bodily death

3546
01:57:48,790 --> 01:57:46,960
they all do they all came to the same

3547
01:57:50,390 --> 01:57:48,800
conclusion sam parney was one of the

3548
01:57:51,270 --> 01:57:50,400
last holdouts and he finally has come

3549
01:57:52,950 --> 01:57:51,280
around and said

3550
01:57:55,030 --> 01:57:52,960
gee you know no matter how i crunch this

3551
01:57:55,430 --> 01:57:55,040
dead and no matter how uncomfortable it

3552
01:57:57,189 --> 01:57:55,440
is

3553
01:57:58,870 --> 01:57:57,199
and no matter how much crap i'm going to

3554
01:57:59,830 --> 01:57:58,880
get and probably get ostracized by so

3555
01:58:03,350 --> 01:57:59,840
many people

3556
01:58:07,189 --> 01:58:03,360
that's the data folks if consciousness

3557
01:58:10,310 --> 01:58:07,199
extends beyond bodily death

3558
01:58:11,589 --> 01:58:10,320
beyond a functioning brain of any sort

3559
01:58:13,669 --> 01:58:11,599
that would fit into our current

3560
01:58:15,910 --> 01:58:13,679
neurological model

3561
01:58:17,589 --> 01:58:15,920
then it's we can't talk in those terms

3562
01:58:20,629 --> 01:58:17,599
anymore the mystical

3563
01:58:21,030 --> 01:58:20,639
is no longer out there the mystical is

3564
01:58:25,030 --> 01:58:21,040
the

3565
01:58:28,070 --> 01:58:25,040
that is what's

3566
01:58:31,350 --> 01:58:28,080
being experienced and scientifically

3567
01:58:34,629 --> 01:58:31,360
we can't get past it so that i guess

3568
01:58:36,310 --> 01:58:34,639
opens the door for considering all these

3569
01:58:39,109 --> 01:58:36,320
other things that i'm talking about

3570
01:58:40,709 --> 01:58:39,119
so i'm not sure where you're going with

3571
01:58:42,709 --> 01:58:40,719
that

3572
01:58:43,910 --> 01:58:42,719
i think it's i don't i'm not an expert

3573
01:58:46,470 --> 01:58:43,920
in any of those areas

3574
01:58:48,390 --> 01:58:46,480
you know so let me preface that i've i

3575
01:58:49,510 --> 01:58:48,400
wind up every few years speaking at

3576
01:58:51,350 --> 01:58:49,520
conferences where

3577
01:58:53,030 --> 01:58:51,360
people are speaking about those types of

3578
01:58:54,950 --> 01:58:53,040
things and meeting the people who are

3579
01:58:56,310 --> 01:58:54,960
doing the research and sometimes having

3580
01:58:58,070 --> 01:58:56,320
dinner with them

3581
01:58:59,910 --> 01:58:58,080
and stuff like that and so more or less

3582
01:59:03,510 --> 01:58:59,920
like my knowledge of that area

3583
01:59:05,430 --> 01:59:03,520
is limited to those dinners

3584
01:59:07,430 --> 01:59:05,440
and i gotta i gotta poke you a little

3585
01:59:08,950 --> 01:59:07,440
bit on that because it it can't be

3586
01:59:10,709 --> 01:59:08,960
i mean you're right in the middle of

3587
01:59:13,189 --> 01:59:10,719
that i mean you're you're kind of

3588
01:59:15,030 --> 01:59:13,199
forced to have an opinion on that and

3589
01:59:17,910 --> 01:59:15,040
what you're really saying is

3590
01:59:19,030 --> 01:59:17,920
your opinion is that you do not accept

3591
01:59:22,709 --> 01:59:19,040
that

3592
01:59:25,109 --> 01:59:22,719
demonstrated to extend

3593
01:59:26,070 --> 01:59:25,119
beyond bodily death and again you know

3594
01:59:27,589 --> 01:59:26,080
when people say

3595
01:59:30,070 --> 01:59:27,599
death where people get hung up they say

3596
01:59:31,830 --> 01:59:30,080
well that's not really dead and you know

3597
01:59:33,030 --> 01:59:31,840
the brain might be functioning in some

3598
01:59:34,870 --> 01:59:33,040
way and stuff like that

3599
01:59:36,470 --> 01:59:34,880
and again i'd point you to i always

3600
01:59:37,830 --> 01:59:36,480
point people to san pernia because when

3601
01:59:38,390 --> 01:59:37,840
i had him on the show i was kind of mean

3602
01:59:39,750 --> 01:59:38,400
to him and

3603
01:59:42,149 --> 01:59:39,760
i don't even know if he likes me anymore

3604
01:59:44,310 --> 01:59:42,159
but he is one of the world's leading

3605
01:59:46,390 --> 01:59:44,320
authorities in resuscitation

3606
01:59:47,750 --> 01:59:46,400
and why he didn't like me i really held

3607
01:59:50,790 --> 01:59:47,760
his feet to the fire and

3608
01:59:52,390 --> 01:59:50,800
and get him to say what he really wants

3609
01:59:55,510 --> 01:59:52,400
to say but doesn't feel like he

3610
01:59:56,709 --> 01:59:55,520
can and that's that these people and he

3611
01:59:59,189 --> 01:59:56,719
does say this

3612
01:59:59,990 --> 01:59:59,199
these people are dead these people are

3613
02:00:03,270 --> 02:00:00,000
not near

3614
02:00:03,750 --> 02:00:03,280
death they are dead by every means we've

3615
02:00:07,510 --> 02:00:03,760
ever

3616
02:00:10,470 --> 02:00:07,520
measured people being dead clinically

3617
02:00:12,149 --> 02:00:10,480
and their brain is not capable of

3618
02:00:13,589 --> 02:00:12,159
functioning in any way we would

3619
02:00:16,070 --> 02:00:13,599
associate with consciousness

3620
02:00:16,629 --> 02:00:16,080
so put aside the university of michigan

3621
02:00:18,870 --> 02:00:16,639
you know

3622
02:00:21,109 --> 02:00:18,880
brain burst in the rats and put aside

3623
02:00:24,149 --> 02:00:21,119
all that because they've dealt with that

3624
02:00:26,070 --> 02:00:24,159
and that's the data so i can't really

3625
02:00:28,310 --> 02:00:26,080
let you off the hook in terms of not

3626
02:00:29,350 --> 02:00:28,320
engaging with that because it doesn't

3627
02:00:31,510 --> 02:00:29,360
fit well

3628
02:00:33,589 --> 02:00:31,520
with your kind of thing about the

3629
02:00:35,430 --> 02:00:33,599
mystical and well it's mystical

3630
02:00:37,669 --> 02:00:35,440
no what i'm saying is the best data

3631
02:00:39,350 --> 02:00:37,679
suggests that that is the fundamental

3632
02:00:41,350 --> 02:00:39,360
reality is that there

3633
02:00:44,149 --> 02:00:41,360
is this extended consciousness and when

3634
02:00:47,669 --> 02:00:44,159
we embody this

3635
02:00:50,629 --> 02:00:47,679
you know kind of brain to consciousness

3636
02:00:51,990 --> 02:00:50,639
thing we're in a special subset of it

3637
02:00:54,229 --> 02:00:52,000
and if we can put that under the

3638
02:00:56,550 --> 02:00:54,239
microscope like you're doing that's fine

3639
02:00:59,990 --> 02:00:56,560
but we can't ignore that all this other

3640
02:01:03,109 --> 02:01:01,669
yeah i would just you know from my

3641
02:01:06,390 --> 02:01:03,119
perspective

3642
02:01:08,390 --> 02:01:06,400
i just haven't looked enough at the data

3643
02:01:09,430 --> 02:01:08,400
right i mean i've met a lot of these

3644
02:01:12,550 --> 02:01:09,440
people

3645
02:01:13,510 --> 02:01:12,560
in casual situations you know i mean

3646
02:01:16,470 --> 02:01:13,520
i've been to russ

3647
02:01:18,070 --> 02:01:16,480
targ's house in palo alto and you know

3648
02:01:20,229 --> 02:01:18,080
hung out with him and had fascinating

3649
02:01:22,550 --> 02:01:20,239
conversations about his research at sri

3650
02:01:25,830 --> 02:01:22,560
and remote viewing and pk and

3651
02:01:27,350 --> 02:01:25,840
you know stuff like that right i've uh

3652
02:01:29,189 --> 02:01:27,360
i don't know where russell targus is

3653
02:01:30,310 --> 02:01:29,199
coming from but he's kind of an

3654
02:01:32,149 --> 02:01:30,320
interesting figure

3655
02:01:33,510 --> 02:01:32,159
the remote viewing very interesting

3656
02:01:35,030 --> 02:01:33,520
figure well but

3657
02:01:36,709 --> 02:01:35,040
i don't know what to make of that the

3658
02:01:38,470 --> 02:01:36,719
remote viewing thing is

3659
02:01:40,390 --> 02:01:38,480
is part of it the remote viewing thing

3660
02:01:42,629 --> 02:01:40,400
no i mean just straight up

3661
02:01:44,149 --> 02:01:42,639
it's part of the mk ultra program right

3662
02:01:45,030 --> 02:01:44,159
so they want to distance themselves from

3663
02:01:47,270 --> 02:01:45,040
that a little bit

3664
02:01:48,790 --> 02:01:47,280
but it is they said sydney gottlieb was

3665
02:01:50,550 --> 02:01:48,800
our boss and we didn't really like

3666
02:01:52,229 --> 02:01:50,560
sydney and when he came around he wanted

3667
02:01:53,189 --> 02:01:52,239
to give people lsd and see if they could

3668
02:01:54,709 --> 02:01:53,199
better remote view

3669
02:01:57,030 --> 02:01:54,719
this is their account i mean i'm not

3670
02:01:58,950 --> 02:01:57,040
making this up this is what they say

3671
02:02:01,430 --> 02:01:58,960
but it's part of the mk ultra program

3672
02:02:02,310 --> 02:02:01,440
and sydney gottlieb is running the thing

3673
02:02:03,990 --> 02:02:02,320
so that doesn't

3674
02:02:05,830 --> 02:02:04,000
automatically mean that we ignore all

3675
02:02:09,270 --> 02:02:05,840
the research or anything but

3676
02:02:11,030 --> 02:02:09,280
it's different than you know sampania

3677
02:02:13,430 --> 02:02:11,040
it's different than pin van lamo

3678
02:02:15,350 --> 02:02:13,440
over in the netherlands as a cardiac

3679
02:02:17,350 --> 02:02:15,360
yeah i mean pem's another great example

3680
02:02:19,430 --> 02:02:17,360
right i've run across pym for years

3681
02:02:21,350 --> 02:02:19,440
at different conferences and you know

3682
02:02:23,270 --> 02:02:21,360
dinners and stuff like that

3683
02:02:24,390 --> 02:02:23,280
i think he from the summary that i've

3684
02:02:27,030 --> 02:02:24,400
seen of his data

3685
02:02:29,030 --> 02:02:27,040
presented um i the longest i've seen is

3686
02:02:31,030 --> 02:02:29,040
an hour-long presentation from him

3687
02:02:32,709 --> 02:02:31,040
i've never dug into the data on or

3688
02:02:34,950 --> 02:02:32,719
whatever else

3689
02:02:36,070 --> 02:02:34,960
i think one of the interesting there

3690
02:02:37,669 --> 02:02:36,080
there are big

3691
02:02:39,510 --> 02:02:37,679
questions that stand out from that first

3692
02:02:41,430 --> 02:02:39,520
of all i think his personal story is fun

3693
02:02:43,109 --> 02:02:41,440
right where he was like gets one of the

3694
02:02:43,669 --> 02:02:43,119
first defibrillators or whatever and is

3695
02:02:45,109 --> 02:02:43,679
like

3696
02:02:47,189 --> 02:02:45,119
brings the guy back to life thinking

3697
02:02:47,910 --> 02:02:47,199
that he's a medical hero and a god or

3698
02:02:50,790 --> 02:02:47,920
whatever

3699
02:02:53,430 --> 02:02:50,800
and the guy's angry at him i mean how

3700
02:02:53,750 --> 02:02:53,440
priceless of a personal mobile story is

3701
02:02:55,910 --> 02:02:53,760
that

3702
02:02:56,870 --> 02:02:55,920
to like launch the whole research from

3703
02:02:58,950 --> 02:02:56,880
right

3704
02:03:00,070 --> 02:02:58,960
um so i find him sort of fun from that

3705
02:03:02,470 --> 02:03:00,080
standpoint but

3706
02:03:03,750 --> 02:03:02,480
you know what i if i'm remembering it's

3707
02:03:04,709 --> 02:03:03,760
been a while since i've seen this

3708
02:03:06,709 --> 02:03:04,719
presentation

3709
02:03:08,229 --> 02:03:06,719
it was something like less than 15

3710
02:03:09,430 --> 02:03:08,239
percent maybe have some sort of

3711
02:03:11,270 --> 02:03:09,440
experience of

3712
02:03:14,070 --> 02:03:11,280
of near-death something that they bring

3713
02:03:17,430 --> 02:03:14,080
back and remember and like some sort of

3714
02:03:18,629 --> 02:03:17,440
mid to mid-range single-figure

3715
02:03:21,350 --> 02:03:18,639
percentage

3716
02:03:23,270 --> 02:03:21,360
have a detailed account have one of sort

3717
02:03:24,149 --> 02:03:23,280
of the more highly detailed accounts or

3718
02:03:25,430 --> 02:03:24,159
something like that

3719
02:03:26,870 --> 02:03:25,440
right so you know that i was going to

3720
02:03:28,310 --> 02:03:26,880
panel with him when he was talking about

3721
02:03:29,990 --> 02:03:28,320
that and it made me say well

3722
02:03:31,589 --> 02:03:30,000
okay pam you know what about the other

3723
02:03:33,109 --> 02:03:31,599
people like are we

3724
02:03:34,709 --> 02:03:33,119
what they think that we're in a video

3725
02:03:36,470 --> 02:03:34,719
game and the others are like non-player

3726
02:03:37,750 --> 02:03:36,480
characters and when they die

3727
02:03:40,070 --> 02:03:37,760
i'm gonna give you some of the nuances

3728
02:03:41,109 --> 02:03:40,080
because i'm still holding your feet to

3729
02:03:43,189 --> 02:03:41,119
the fire here because

3730
02:03:44,310 --> 02:03:43,199
this is fundamental to i think what

3731
02:03:45,910 --> 02:03:44,320
you're talking about and what you're

3732
02:03:47,510 --> 02:03:45,920
doing it's one way or another you know

3733
02:03:48,149 --> 02:03:47,520
either fall on one side of it or the

3734
02:03:51,270 --> 02:03:48,159
other

3735
02:03:53,189 --> 02:03:51,280
and it's it seems to be again an

3736
02:03:55,109 --> 02:03:53,199
important kind of distinction so one of

3737
02:03:57,669 --> 02:03:55,119
the things we don't know about

3738
02:03:59,750 --> 02:03:57,679
who is having a near-death experience is

3739
02:04:00,550 --> 02:03:59,760
it does seem to be very linked to memory

3740
02:04:02,149 --> 02:04:00,560
right so

3741
02:04:03,750 --> 02:04:02,159
do you remember your dreams at night or

3742
02:04:04,790 --> 02:04:03,760
do you not remember your dreams at night

3743
02:04:06,229 --> 02:04:04,800
and there's a lot of people that come to

3744
02:04:07,669 --> 02:04:06,239
go i don't dream you know

3745
02:04:09,750 --> 02:04:07,679
and then they go into the dream lab and

3746
02:04:09,990 --> 02:04:09,760
they go you know everybody dreams pal he

3747
02:04:12,390 --> 02:04:10,000
goes

3748
02:04:13,990 --> 02:04:12,400
no i don't dream go okay go to sleep and

3749
02:04:15,589 --> 02:04:14,000
then they wait and they get in and run

3750
02:04:18,069 --> 02:04:15,599
movement they wake him up and goes

3751
02:04:19,669 --> 02:04:18,079
oh my gosh i dream you know well there's

3752
02:04:22,069 --> 02:04:19,679
a lot of speculation that that

3753
02:04:23,510 --> 02:04:22,079
may be somehow in some way what's

3754
02:04:25,589 --> 02:04:23,520
happening with near-death experience it

3755
02:04:28,069 --> 02:04:25,599
may be more tied to

3756
02:04:29,430 --> 02:04:28,079
remembering whether or not you had such

3757
02:04:30,950 --> 02:04:29,440
sure i mean that's the

3758
02:04:33,510 --> 02:04:30,960
obvious place that you would go if

3759
02:04:36,310 --> 02:04:33,520
you're thinking about it for 10 minutes

3760
02:04:37,350 --> 02:04:36,320
but really the gold standard i think in

3761
02:04:39,350 --> 02:04:37,360
terms of

3762
02:04:41,189 --> 02:04:39,360
research that's been done on that and

3763
02:04:43,830 --> 02:04:41,199
it's really a very simple

3764
02:04:44,470 --> 02:04:43,840
experiment and those are the best always

3765
02:04:46,470 --> 02:04:44,480
is just

3766
02:04:47,830 --> 02:04:46,480
going to people who what they did is

3767
02:04:50,069 --> 02:04:47,840
they went to people who were in a

3768
02:04:51,990 --> 02:04:50,079
cardiac arrest board

3769
02:04:54,629 --> 02:04:52,000
and they said okay we're going to survey

3770
02:04:55,910 --> 02:04:54,639
you you know after you have a cardiac

3771
02:04:57,430 --> 02:04:55,920
arrest if you do

3772
02:04:59,350 --> 02:04:57,440
and they do and they go to the people

3773
02:05:00,069 --> 02:04:59,360
and they say what was your near-death

3774
02:05:02,950 --> 02:05:00,079
experience

3775
02:05:04,069 --> 02:05:02,960
like which again in a strange way ties

3776
02:05:06,149 --> 02:05:04,079
to this memory thing

3777
02:05:07,910 --> 02:05:06,159
because the vast majority of them say i

3778
02:05:10,390 --> 02:05:07,920
didn't have a near-death experience

3779
02:05:12,069 --> 02:05:10,400
and they go they go okay well tell us

3780
02:05:15,430 --> 02:05:12,079
about your resuscitation

3781
02:05:17,350 --> 02:05:15,440
and they go uh dummy i just told you

3782
02:05:18,629 --> 02:05:17,360
i didn't have a near-death experience i

3783
02:05:20,950 --> 02:05:18,639
have no recollection

3784
02:05:22,069 --> 02:05:20,960
of what my resuscitation is they go just

3785
02:05:24,229 --> 02:05:22,079
tell us what you know

3786
02:05:25,750 --> 02:05:24,239
so they make something up they go well

3787
02:05:26,790 --> 02:05:25,760
they probably did this and they probably

3788
02:05:28,550 --> 02:05:26,800
did that and they probably had that

3789
02:05:29,270 --> 02:05:28,560
machine to come and zap me and this and

3790
02:05:31,109 --> 02:05:29,280
that

3791
02:05:33,109 --> 02:05:31,119
and then they went to the people i think

3792
02:05:34,550 --> 02:05:33,119
was 15 in the study there's several

3793
02:05:35,430 --> 02:05:34,560
different studies you can go and look on

3794
02:05:37,830 --> 02:05:35,440
this

3795
02:05:38,709 --> 02:05:37,840
in the 20 range and they said what

3796
02:05:40,709 --> 02:05:38,719
happened

3797
02:05:42,149 --> 02:05:40,719
during your resuscitation i go oh i'll

3798
02:05:44,149 --> 02:05:42,159
tell you exactly what happened

3799
02:05:46,149 --> 02:05:44,159
yeah they wheeled they did wheel the

3800
02:05:47,750 --> 02:05:46,159
machine in but it didn't work

3801
02:05:50,149 --> 02:05:47,760
so they said hard to start doing it

3802
02:05:51,750 --> 02:05:50,159
manually and this one woman she had on a

3803
02:05:52,870 --> 02:05:51,760
green gown and she came in and she

3804
02:05:54,229 --> 02:05:52,880
pushed the other guys out of the way and

3805
02:05:56,870 --> 02:05:54,239
she jumped on my chest you know

3806
02:05:58,229 --> 02:05:56,880
they tell it exactly right right and of

3807
02:05:59,830 --> 02:05:58,239
course you're a social scientist you

3808
02:06:02,229 --> 02:05:59,840
can't just throw out these accounts

3809
02:06:05,390 --> 02:06:02,239
you can systematically organize them and

3810
02:06:07,990 --> 02:06:05,400
see which are more accurate isn't it

3811
02:06:09,750 --> 02:06:08,000
overwhelmingly statistically the people

3812
02:06:11,910 --> 02:06:09,760
that claim that they had a near-death

3813
02:06:13,669 --> 02:06:11,920
experience are able to

3814
02:06:15,270 --> 02:06:13,679
accurately recount facts about their

3815
02:06:17,830 --> 02:06:15,280
resuscitation process

3816
02:06:18,870 --> 02:06:17,840
and others aren't and you know i always

3817
02:06:20,470 --> 02:06:18,880
add this you

3818
02:06:22,229 --> 02:06:20,480
probably know this i'm almost sure that

3819
02:06:25,109 --> 02:06:22,239
you do but in a modern

3820
02:06:26,550 --> 02:06:25,119
medical hospital resuscitation isn't

3821
02:06:26,950 --> 02:06:26,560
happening like you see it in the movies

3822
02:06:30,069 --> 02:06:26,960
you know

3823
02:06:33,189 --> 02:06:30,079
five seconds after they got no it's like

3824
02:06:34,229 --> 02:06:33,199
one two three minutes at a time when we

3825
02:06:37,430 --> 02:06:34,239
know the brain

3826
02:06:39,750 --> 02:06:37,440
is no longer from all our

3827
02:06:40,709 --> 02:06:39,760
neuroscience the brain is no longer

3828
02:06:42,790 --> 02:06:40,719
functioning

3829
02:06:44,870 --> 02:06:42,800
in a way that we would associate with

3830
02:06:46,709 --> 02:06:44,880
forming these kind of

3831
02:06:48,790 --> 02:06:46,719
conscious memories that we know of and

3832
02:06:52,149 --> 02:06:48,800
we have a lot of animal and human

3833
02:06:53,510 --> 02:06:52,159
work to support that so there's a lot of

3834
02:06:56,709 --> 02:06:53,520
science here

3835
02:06:58,470 --> 02:06:56,719
that that leads these guys to say

3836
02:06:59,830 --> 02:06:58,480
yeah you got to lighten up on the

3837
02:07:01,910 --> 02:06:59,840
mystical thing

3838
02:07:02,870 --> 02:07:01,920
it just seems to be a natural part of

3839
02:07:05,270 --> 02:07:02,880
the process

3840
02:07:06,069 --> 02:07:05,280
that consciousness is extending beyond

3841
02:07:08,149 --> 02:07:06,079
bodily death

3842
02:07:09,430 --> 02:07:08,159
and we could go 10 different places to

3843
02:07:12,149 --> 02:07:09,440
prove this i

3844
02:07:15,430 --> 02:07:12,159
i won't bother but i will come back and

3845
02:07:17,750 --> 02:07:15,440
say it seems to be fundamental to

3846
02:07:19,669 --> 02:07:17,760
in one way it's not critical to your

3847
02:07:20,790 --> 02:07:19,679
work but in another way you you kind of

3848
02:07:23,189 --> 02:07:20,800
reach a barrier

3849
02:07:27,189 --> 02:07:23,199
in what you're doing if you don't take a

3850
02:07:28,950 --> 02:07:27,199
side on this one way or another

3851
02:07:30,149 --> 02:07:28,960
you know maybe i'll maybe the day will

3852
02:07:30,709 --> 02:07:30,159
come when i have to really immerse

3853
02:07:32,149 --> 02:07:30,719
myself

3854
02:07:35,510 --> 02:07:32,159
i mean at least i know most of the

3855
02:07:38,709 --> 02:07:35,520
people that are doing it already so

3856
02:07:40,709 --> 02:07:38,719
i have a i have a head start

3857
02:07:42,470 --> 02:07:40,719
and i have some frame of reference for

3858
02:07:43,669 --> 02:07:42,480
it from having known these people for

3859
02:07:45,350 --> 02:07:43,679
years now

3860
02:07:46,950 --> 02:07:45,360
um but i think one thing that's

3861
02:07:50,950 --> 02:07:46,960
important to do as

3862
02:07:55,830 --> 02:07:50,960
a one thing that researchers often do

3863
02:07:59,830 --> 02:07:55,840
that they shouldn't is form opinions

3864
02:08:00,229 --> 02:07:59,840
and um you know speak about conclusions

3865
02:08:04,149 --> 02:08:00,239
or

3866
02:08:06,470 --> 02:08:04,159
even offer opinions kind of out of turn

3867
02:08:08,229 --> 02:08:06,480
you know in the sense that you know i

3868
02:08:08,709 --> 02:08:08,239
think about i don't know that much about

3869
02:08:10,310 --> 02:08:08,719
pim

3870
02:08:12,229 --> 02:08:10,320
you know like i said a few dinners over

3871
02:08:13,589 --> 02:08:12,239
the years and speaking at the same

3872
02:08:15,589 --> 02:08:13,599
things and

3873
02:08:17,030 --> 02:08:15,599
there's one time when i was he was like

3874
02:08:19,030 --> 02:08:17,040
right before me or something so i saw

3875
02:08:20,069 --> 02:08:19,040
his whole hour-long talk

3876
02:08:21,430 --> 02:08:20,079
we just happened to be one of those

3877
02:08:22,470 --> 02:08:21,440
where we were both giving the hour-long

3878
02:08:25,589 --> 02:08:22,480
talks

3879
02:08:29,510 --> 02:08:25,599
um and you know

3880
02:08:32,069 --> 02:08:29,520
i that's kind of the limit i mean i like

3881
02:08:34,470 --> 02:08:32,079
um peter fenwick for instance you know i

3882
02:08:37,510 --> 02:08:34,480
consider peter fenwick a great friend

3883
02:08:39,830 --> 02:08:37,520
he's um he's really into our work

3884
02:08:42,069 --> 02:08:39,840
um i know him personally very well i

3885
02:08:43,109 --> 02:08:42,079
know him to be an incredibly brilliant

3886
02:08:47,589 --> 02:08:43,119
scientist

3887
02:08:48,629 --> 02:08:47,599
know things that happened around things

3888
02:08:49,589 --> 02:08:48,639
that happen around death and

3889
02:08:50,950 --> 02:08:49,599
consciousness

3890
02:08:52,550 --> 02:08:50,960
and stuff like that he's always trying

3891
02:08:54,390 --> 02:08:52,560
to sort of think about our work in

3892
02:08:56,069 --> 02:08:54,400
relation to his work

3893
02:08:57,589 --> 02:08:56,079
and have conversations with me about it

3894
02:09:00,229 --> 02:08:57,599
here and when i stay at his house in

3895
02:09:00,709 --> 02:09:00,239
london you know like that's how well i

3896
02:09:03,750 --> 02:09:00,719
know him

3897
02:09:06,629 --> 02:09:03,760
i'm not peter fenwick like i don't know

3898
02:09:08,629 --> 02:09:06,639
what he knows i haven't spent years

3899
02:09:11,510 --> 02:09:08,639
developing his expertise and i haven't

3900
02:09:14,229 --> 02:09:11,520
looked at his data around his expertise

3901
02:09:14,790 --> 02:09:14,239
in any degree of depth at all you know

3902
02:09:16,629 --> 02:09:14,800
it's like

3903
02:09:18,390 --> 02:09:16,639
we talk about it for a few hours before

3904
02:09:19,830 --> 02:09:18,400
i go to bed i get up the next day i go

3905
02:09:22,149 --> 02:09:19,840
speak at something i come back

3906
02:09:23,830 --> 02:09:22,159
at dinner time and you know the process

3907
02:09:25,350 --> 02:09:23,840
repeats sometimes he drives me we talk

3908
02:09:26,709 --> 02:09:25,360
about it in the car sometimes we have

3909
02:09:27,830 --> 02:09:26,719
lunch because he drove me and he stayed

3910
02:09:29,990 --> 02:09:27,840
at the event and we talked

3911
02:09:30,950 --> 02:09:30,000
he's speaking too and when we talk about

3912
02:09:33,350 --> 02:09:30,960
it at lunch right

3913
02:09:34,470 --> 02:09:33,360
and so what what i think we have to be

3914
02:09:36,870 --> 02:09:34,480
careful to do

3915
02:09:38,550 --> 02:09:36,880
as scientists and i would ask people to

3916
02:09:40,229 --> 02:09:38,560
be as careful with our work as

3917
02:09:41,750 --> 02:09:40,239
i am as i try to be with other people's

3918
02:09:44,310 --> 02:09:41,760
work right is

3919
02:09:45,270 --> 02:09:44,320
unless you have really deeply immersed

3920
02:09:48,550 --> 02:09:45,280
yourself

3921
02:09:50,149 --> 02:09:48,560
in these bodies of work you have to

3922
02:09:52,629 --> 02:09:50,159
first of all respect

3923
02:09:54,310 --> 02:09:52,639
the people that have like you know i

3924
02:09:56,550 --> 02:09:54,320
have tremendous respect

3925
02:09:58,229 --> 02:09:56,560
for peter's viewpoint i have tremendous

3926
02:09:59,910 --> 02:09:58,239
respect for pims

3927
02:10:02,149 --> 02:09:59,920
viewpoint i have tremendous respect for

3928
02:10:03,830 --> 02:10:02,159
dean rayden's viewpoints there's another

3929
02:10:06,390 --> 02:10:03,840
guy that i occasionally run across

3930
02:10:07,030 --> 02:10:06,400
occasionally spend some time talking to

3931
02:10:09,109 --> 02:10:07,040
um

3932
02:10:10,390 --> 02:10:09,119
you know another sort of big wheel in

3933
02:10:12,950 --> 02:10:10,400
that

3934
02:10:13,589 --> 02:10:12,960
sort of extended consciousness area the

3935
02:10:16,629 --> 02:10:13,599
people at the

3936
02:10:17,589 --> 02:10:16,639
at uva uh that are into reincarnation

3937
02:10:18,709 --> 02:10:17,599
and stuff like that

3938
02:10:20,550 --> 02:10:18,719
same deal with them you know

3939
02:10:22,149 --> 02:10:20,560
occasionally run across jim tucker i

3940
02:10:24,310 --> 02:10:22,159
think is his name right

3941
02:10:25,830 --> 02:10:24,320
occasionally run across gym and we're

3942
02:10:27,990 --> 02:10:25,840
speaking at something and maybe we'll

3943
02:10:31,270 --> 02:10:28,000
have a dinner or something

3944
02:10:33,830 --> 02:10:31,280
and so you know i have

3945
02:10:34,310 --> 02:10:33,840
tremendous respect for their work and i

3946
02:10:37,830 --> 02:10:34,320
have

3947
02:10:41,189 --> 02:10:37,840
no reason to think that

3948
02:10:44,229 --> 02:10:41,199
their work is faulty

3949
02:10:46,470 --> 02:10:44,239
or in error in any way you know i assume

3950
02:10:49,030 --> 02:10:46,480
that they have a community of peers

3951
02:10:49,990 --> 02:10:49,040
that they're interfacing with that

3952
02:10:52,390 --> 02:10:50,000
they're going through

3953
02:10:53,189 --> 02:10:52,400
they seem you know to me to be rigorous

3954
02:10:55,189 --> 02:10:53,199
scientists

3955
02:10:57,910 --> 02:10:55,199
who seem to be applying the scientific

3956
02:10:59,830 --> 02:10:57,920
methods in their areas as best they can

3957
02:11:01,990 --> 02:10:59,840
and very they seem like intelligent

3958
02:11:04,069 --> 02:11:02,000
people you know

3959
02:11:06,229 --> 02:11:04,079
many of them seemed like they were

3960
02:11:07,189 --> 02:11:06,239
unbiased before they got into it or

3961
02:11:08,709 --> 02:11:07,199
maybe even

3962
02:11:11,030 --> 02:11:08,719
the thought that they were in it to

3963
02:11:12,950 --> 02:11:11,040
disprove it uh and then got sort of

3964
02:11:16,629 --> 02:11:12,960
turned in another direction

3965
02:11:19,430 --> 02:11:16,639
uh from the data and so i think as as as

3966
02:11:20,709 --> 02:11:19,440
as a scientist who sort of glances into

3967
02:11:23,750 --> 02:11:20,719
their area

3968
02:11:25,910 --> 02:11:23,760
um it's more incumbent upon me to

3969
02:11:27,270 --> 02:11:25,920
to say you know these are people to be

3970
02:11:30,390 --> 02:11:27,280
respected and listened

3971
02:11:33,510 --> 02:11:30,400
to let me back up and say look

3972
02:11:36,229 --> 02:11:33,520
i i do respect where you're coming from

3973
02:11:37,350 --> 02:11:36,239
and i think you've given a very uh

3974
02:11:39,109 --> 02:11:37,360
reasoned response

3975
02:11:40,709 --> 02:11:39,119
i'm going to pick it apart but i still

3976
02:11:43,669 --> 02:11:40,719
think it's very recent response

3977
02:11:45,109 --> 02:11:43,679
and that is that you know number one

3978
02:11:48,310 --> 02:11:45,119
what i what i hear you saying

3979
02:11:50,870 --> 02:11:48,320
is that you got to stay in your lane

3980
02:11:52,870 --> 02:11:50,880
and we need you in your lane you know

3981
02:11:54,629 --> 02:11:52,880
what i mean because i only know my lane

3982
02:11:55,270 --> 02:11:54,639
to the level that i know my lane you

3983
02:11:57,990 --> 02:11:55,280
know

3984
02:11:59,350 --> 02:11:58,000
exactly well and i think that this

3985
02:12:01,350 --> 02:11:59,360
interview if it's

3986
02:12:03,750 --> 02:12:01,360
effective is somewhat a testament to the

3987
02:12:05,189 --> 02:12:03,760
fact that you know you're lane

3988
02:12:06,790 --> 02:12:05,199
and that we can trust some of the

3989
02:12:08,470 --> 02:12:06,800
conclusions you're coming to

3990
02:12:10,550 --> 02:12:08,480
and the process that you go through that

3991
02:12:12,550 --> 02:12:10,560
you described is kind of

3992
02:12:14,069 --> 02:12:12,560
saying this is what it takes to know my

3993
02:12:17,510 --> 02:12:14,079
lane so i don't

3994
02:12:20,149 --> 02:12:17,520
ask me to know at some depth

3995
02:12:21,109 --> 02:12:20,159
these other lanes at the same time i

3996
02:12:24,229 --> 02:12:21,119
guess what i'm

3997
02:12:24,950 --> 02:12:24,239
challenging is that and i don't mean

3998
02:12:28,550 --> 02:12:24,960
this in a

3999
02:12:30,149 --> 02:12:28,560
in a a way to kind of jump on or

4000
02:12:31,430 --> 02:12:30,159
directly contradict what i just said

4001
02:12:33,109 --> 02:12:31,440
because i think it's important you know

4002
02:12:34,069 --> 02:12:33,119
you can only do so much and you can only

4003
02:12:36,229 --> 02:12:34,079
focus on it so much

4004
02:12:37,750 --> 02:12:36,239
but there is a fundamental assumption

4005
02:12:40,550 --> 02:12:37,760
here

4006
02:12:42,629 --> 02:12:40,560
and the default assumption i think is

4007
02:12:44,950 --> 02:12:42,639
really really pretty thin

4008
02:12:46,229 --> 02:12:44,960
and that is the consciousness is an

4009
02:12:47,990 --> 02:12:46,239
epithelium of the brain

4010
02:12:49,990 --> 02:12:48,000
like i like to say it we're biological

4011
02:12:53,030 --> 02:12:50,000
robots in a meaningless universe

4012
02:12:56,629 --> 02:12:53,040
and those are kind of stark silly terms

4013
02:12:59,270 --> 02:12:56,639
but that is fundamentally i mean

4014
02:13:00,709 --> 02:12:59,280
neil degrasse tyson says that directly

4015
02:13:02,950 --> 02:13:00,719
you know he's one of the most

4016
02:13:04,470 --> 02:13:02,960
if he's not an expert on consciousness

4017
02:13:06,229 --> 02:13:04,480
which he's not

4018
02:13:07,910 --> 02:13:06,239
he's certainly one of the most public

4019
02:13:11,669 --> 02:13:07,920
science figures in the world

4020
02:13:14,229 --> 02:13:11,679
sam harris dances around but he winds up

4021
02:13:15,669 --> 02:13:14,239
kind of saying the same thing in kind of

4022
02:13:17,350 --> 02:13:15,679
a mixed uh we don't

4023
02:13:18,870 --> 02:13:17,360
really know where sam's at at any point

4024
02:13:19,750 --> 02:13:18,880
kind of way but that's where he comes

4025
02:13:23,430 --> 02:13:19,760
down

4026
02:13:26,310 --> 02:13:23,440
that default position is contradicted

4027
02:13:27,189 --> 02:13:26,320
by all our best quantum physics

4028
02:13:28,470 --> 02:13:27,199
experiments

4029
02:13:31,430 --> 02:13:28,480
i mean we've been running that damn

4030
02:13:34,310 --> 02:13:31,440
double slit experiment every which way

4031
02:13:35,830 --> 02:13:34,320
for the last hundred years and it always

4032
02:13:37,910 --> 02:13:35,840
comes out the same way

4033
02:13:38,950 --> 02:13:37,920
with the observer effect which is highly

4034
02:13:40,390 --> 02:13:38,960
suggestive

4035
02:13:43,510 --> 02:13:40,400
that consciousness is somehow

4036
02:13:46,069 --> 02:13:43,520
fundamental which only fits in one model

4037
02:13:48,229 --> 02:13:46,079
it only fits in the idealism model in

4038
02:13:50,470 --> 02:13:48,239
the near death experience model

4039
02:13:51,669 --> 02:13:50,480
in the outside of time and space model

4040
02:13:54,149 --> 02:13:51,679
it don't fit

4041
02:13:55,750 --> 02:13:54,159
in the materialist your biological robot

4042
02:13:57,510 --> 02:13:55,760
in a meaningless universe

4043
02:13:59,109 --> 02:13:57,520
and your consciousness is generated by

4044
02:14:01,350 --> 02:13:59,119
your brain it don't

4045
02:14:02,629 --> 02:14:01,360
fit in that model no matter how many

4046
02:14:05,430 --> 02:14:02,639
times they want to try and

4047
02:14:06,069 --> 02:14:05,440
force it back in so i guess the one

4048
02:14:07,589 --> 02:14:06,079
critique

4049
02:14:09,510 --> 02:14:07,599
i'd have and i'm making it for the fifth

4050
02:14:12,870 --> 02:14:09,520
time and then i'll let it go

4051
02:14:13,990 --> 02:14:12,880
is that you i don't know why you would

4052
02:14:17,030 --> 02:14:14,000
give

4053
02:14:19,510 --> 02:14:17,040
deference to the one

4054
02:14:21,430 --> 02:14:19,520
over the other other than that's just

4055
02:14:21,669 --> 02:14:21,440
kind of what it was when you were coming

4056
02:14:23,589 --> 02:14:21,679
up

4057
02:14:24,950 --> 02:14:23,599
and that's what you know a lot of people

4058
02:14:28,629 --> 02:14:24,960
kind of is their default

4059
02:14:30,310 --> 02:14:28,639
position i don't know if i do give

4060
02:14:33,350 --> 02:14:30,320
deference to one or the other i think

4061
02:14:35,589 --> 02:14:33,360
i i think my answer is i have no idea

4062
02:14:37,270 --> 02:14:35,599
and you know i haven't looked at that

4063
02:14:39,350 --> 02:14:37,280
data one of the things i did when i was

4064
02:14:42,870 --> 02:14:39,360
at sophia

4065
02:14:44,550 --> 02:14:42,880
uh here in palo alto um where i was

4066
02:14:46,149 --> 02:14:44,560
you know a professor for a period of

4067
02:14:47,830 --> 02:14:46,159
years and even their

4068
02:14:49,189 --> 02:14:47,840
vice president dean of research for a

4069
02:14:52,550 --> 02:14:49,199
while and all that

4070
02:14:56,790 --> 02:14:52,560
um is i tried to i tried to help

4071
02:14:59,910 --> 02:14:56,800
with the starting of a consciousness

4072
02:15:01,270 --> 02:14:59,920
studies master's degree that looked into

4073
02:15:04,229 --> 02:15:01,280
some of this

4074
02:15:04,629 --> 02:15:04,239
and what happened was i'd asked someone

4075
02:15:06,709 --> 02:15:04,639
who's

4076
02:15:08,390 --> 02:15:06,719
very maligned oftentimes publicly or

4077
02:15:11,910 --> 02:15:08,400
whatever but who i

4078
02:15:13,589 --> 02:15:11,920
personally like um deepak chopra

4079
02:15:15,350 --> 02:15:13,599
to come and speak at the commencement

4080
02:15:16,790 --> 02:15:15,360
you know the president said hey you know

4081
02:15:18,149 --> 02:15:16,800
deepak chopra can you get him to come

4082
02:15:19,510 --> 02:15:18,159
and speak to the commencement and so i

4083
02:15:20,310 --> 02:15:19,520
thought well it doesn't hurt to send an

4084
02:15:21,750 --> 02:15:20,320
email right

4085
02:15:23,589 --> 02:15:21,760
and it turns out that he'd always kind

4086
02:15:26,870 --> 02:15:23,599
of been a fan of sophia

4087
02:15:29,430 --> 02:15:26,880
and he you know canceled a ton of stuff

4088
02:15:29,910 --> 02:15:29,440
to come and give the commencement talk

4089
02:15:31,589 --> 02:15:29,920
um

4090
02:15:32,950 --> 02:15:31,599
at sophia and he kind of came with an

4091
02:15:36,550 --> 02:15:32,960
agenda

4092
02:15:37,990 --> 02:15:36,560
start two masters programs online

4093
02:15:39,189 --> 02:15:38,000
master's programs so they could reach

4094
02:15:40,790 --> 02:15:39,199
anyone anywhere in the world he was

4095
02:15:41,910 --> 02:15:40,800
already doing one at ucsd

4096
02:15:44,870 --> 02:15:41,920
but they weren't willing to put it

4097
02:15:46,229 --> 02:15:44,880
online um one was in like his holistic

4098
02:15:47,510 --> 02:15:46,239
health area i can't remember what he

4099
02:15:48,790 --> 02:15:47,520
called it there was not he didn't call

4100
02:15:50,470 --> 02:15:48,800
it holistic health there was

4101
02:15:53,350 --> 02:15:50,480
there was a better term for it than that

4102
02:15:54,870 --> 02:15:53,360
um and then one in consciousness studies

4103
02:15:56,550 --> 02:15:54,880
and the case that he made for the

4104
02:16:00,390 --> 02:15:56,560
consciousness studies one

4105
02:16:04,790 --> 02:16:00,400
over dinner um another dinner

4106
02:16:07,669 --> 02:16:04,800
was that really there wasn't a program

4107
02:16:09,350 --> 02:16:07,679
that approached consciousness studies

4108
02:16:11,910 --> 02:16:09,360
that was a serious program

4109
02:16:13,189 --> 02:16:11,920
from this perspective uh from the

4110
02:16:14,149 --> 02:16:13,199
perspective that you're talking about

4111
02:16:15,750 --> 02:16:14,159
from the perspective that you're

4112
02:16:16,950 --> 02:16:15,760
advocating anywhere in any sort of

4113
02:16:19,750 --> 02:16:16,960
accredited

4114
02:16:21,350 --> 02:16:19,760
you know university there were programs

4115
02:16:22,550 --> 02:16:21,360
like this and unaccredited universities

4116
02:16:23,990 --> 02:16:22,560
of state approved

4117
02:16:25,430 --> 02:16:24,000
you know universities and stuff like

4118
02:16:27,270 --> 02:16:25,440
that but not in regionally accredited

4119
02:16:30,149 --> 02:16:27,280
universities and so he said you know

4120
02:16:31,430 --> 02:16:30,159
and so i said you know listen i'm i went

4121
02:16:32,629 --> 02:16:31,440
back looked at it he was right i

4122
02:16:36,389 --> 02:16:32,639
couldn't find any

4123
02:16:39,429 --> 02:16:36,399
um and so i started thinking

4124
02:16:42,309 --> 02:16:39,439
why not you know it certainly seems like

4125
02:16:44,230 --> 02:16:42,319
there should be a program from that

4126
02:16:45,910 --> 02:16:44,240
perspective that brings together so i

4127
02:16:46,549 --> 02:16:45,920
started emailing everybody i mean i

4128
02:16:49,270 --> 02:16:46,559
emailed

4129
02:16:50,790 --> 02:16:49,280
you know dean and stan krippner and just

4130
02:16:51,990 --> 02:16:50,800
like anybody that you would have ever

4131
02:16:54,790 --> 02:16:52,000
thought pim

4132
02:16:56,629 --> 02:16:54,800
you know peter we'd go down a list of

4133
02:16:58,070 --> 02:16:56,639
the people we talked about today and 100

4134
02:17:01,349 --> 02:16:58,080
others

4135
02:17:02,790 --> 02:17:01,359
that i knew are in that space um and i

4136
02:17:03,750 --> 02:17:02,800
said hey would you be willing to

4137
02:17:06,070 --> 02:17:03,760
contribute

4138
02:17:07,589 --> 02:17:06,080
you know to a program on this and here's

4139
02:17:08,549 --> 02:17:07,599
the format that i'm thinking here's the

4140
02:17:10,070 --> 02:17:08,559
structure and it's

4141
02:17:11,910 --> 02:17:10,080
we already have one that we can shoehorn

4142
02:17:13,750 --> 02:17:11,920
it in that's approved as

4143
02:17:14,950 --> 02:17:13,760
by our regional accreditors it would be

4144
02:17:16,549 --> 02:17:14,960
a psychology transfer personal

4145
02:17:18,629 --> 02:17:16,559
psychology degree with this type of

4146
02:17:21,270 --> 02:17:18,639
consciousness study specialization

4147
02:17:22,629 --> 02:17:21,280
uh and so i don't have like an anti view

4148
02:17:24,230 --> 02:17:22,639
of this or a non

4149
02:17:25,589 --> 02:17:24,240
or sort of a hostile view of this or

4150
02:17:26,309 --> 02:17:25,599
something i was actually working to

4151
02:17:29,750 --> 02:17:26,319
create the

4152
02:17:31,110 --> 02:17:29,760
first actual scholarly program in it

4153
02:17:33,190 --> 02:17:31,120
that i'm aware of

4154
02:17:35,110 --> 02:17:33,200
um at the time when i left sophia

4155
02:17:37,110 --> 02:17:35,120
university and then it fell through

4156
02:17:38,629 --> 02:17:37,120
you know after that sophia changed

4157
02:17:39,750 --> 02:17:38,639
owners basically it got bought by a

4158
02:17:40,790 --> 02:17:39,760
chinese group they were a lot more

4159
02:17:42,549 --> 02:17:40,800
interested in computer science and

4160
02:17:45,990 --> 02:17:42,559
psychology and that was that

4161
02:17:47,750 --> 02:17:46,000
um and so you know it's i do

4162
02:17:49,830 --> 02:17:47,760
think that this is a very legitimate

4163
02:17:51,349 --> 02:17:49,840
area of inquiry one where i know a lot

4164
02:17:54,870 --> 02:17:51,359
of people who are into it

4165
02:17:57,990 --> 02:17:54,880
um but just not an area that is

4166
02:18:00,629 --> 02:17:58,000
you know my expertise

4167
02:18:01,990 --> 02:18:00,639
per se anymore one final thought on that

4168
02:18:02,790 --> 02:18:02,000
and then i'll then i'll let it go

4169
02:18:05,110 --> 02:18:02,800
because i

4170
02:18:05,990 --> 02:18:05,120
totally respect your answer and is

4171
02:18:08,389 --> 02:18:06,000
extremely

4172
02:18:10,790 --> 02:18:08,399
open and direct and and you got the

4173
02:18:13,669 --> 02:18:10,800
goods you're there

4174
02:18:15,910 --> 02:18:13,679
if you were to kind of speculate for a

4175
02:18:18,469 --> 02:18:15,920
second jeffrey

4176
02:18:19,750 --> 02:18:18,479
potentially what could be the

4177
02:18:21,429 --> 02:18:19,760
implications

4178
02:18:23,589 --> 02:18:21,439
since you know what we're talking about

4179
02:18:25,270 --> 02:18:23,599
here what could potentially be the

4180
02:18:28,870 --> 02:18:25,280
implications for

4181
02:18:32,549 --> 02:18:28,880
what you're doing can you even just

4182
02:18:34,549 --> 02:18:32,559
kind of imagine it you know

4183
02:18:38,549 --> 02:18:34,559
consciousness survives death there are

4184
02:18:40,150 --> 02:18:38,559
these extended consciousness realms

4185
02:18:42,549 --> 02:18:40,160
i mean what could be the implications

4186
02:18:43,910 --> 02:18:42,559
for if extended consciousness was true

4187
02:18:45,750 --> 02:18:43,920
what would be the what could be a

4188
02:18:48,230 --> 02:18:45,760
possible implication for it from a

4189
02:18:51,589 --> 02:18:48,240
fundamental well-being standpoint

4190
02:18:55,830 --> 02:18:51,599
exactly and then part b of that

4191
02:18:59,750 --> 02:18:55,840
is from uh technology assisted

4192
02:19:00,469 --> 02:18:59,760
contact with extended consciousness

4193
02:19:02,950 --> 02:19:00,479
realms

4194
02:19:04,629 --> 02:19:02,960
assuming see because i'm assuming that

4195
02:19:07,110 --> 02:19:04,639
that's what you're doing

4196
02:19:07,910 --> 02:19:07,120
whether you talk about it in those terms

4197
02:19:10,950 --> 02:19:07,920
or not

4198
02:19:13,190 --> 02:19:10,960
that you are helping people

4199
02:19:14,070 --> 02:19:13,200
reach extended consciousness realms in a

4200
02:19:16,150 --> 02:19:14,080
different way

4201
02:19:17,589 --> 02:19:16,160
than they're used to that you're

4202
02:19:20,790 --> 02:19:17,599
altering the

4203
02:19:22,389 --> 02:19:20,800
the signal pattern the frequency the

4204
02:19:24,230 --> 02:19:22,399
adjusting the radio knob

4205
02:19:26,389 --> 02:19:24,240
you know like that that would be you

4206
02:19:27,750 --> 02:19:26,399
you're at least familiar enough to

4207
02:19:31,830 --> 02:19:27,760
understand that that could be

4208
02:19:35,030 --> 02:19:31,840
potentially what's going on so

4209
02:19:37,110 --> 02:19:35,040
any any speculation on that

4210
02:19:38,230 --> 02:19:37,120
you know it's a good question i think um

4211
02:19:41,270 --> 02:19:38,240
[Music]

4212
02:19:42,950 --> 02:19:41,280
dean raiden um i ran across him at the

4213
02:19:43,830 --> 02:19:42,960
science and non-duality conference years

4214
02:19:45,750 --> 02:19:43,840
ago

4215
02:19:48,630 --> 02:19:45,760
and he was taking people up to his hotel

4216
02:19:50,070 --> 02:19:48,640
room and doing eeg on them

4217
02:19:51,670 --> 02:19:50,080
basically the people who were claiming

4218
02:19:53,429 --> 02:19:51,680
to be in fundamental well-being at that

4219
02:19:54,630 --> 02:19:53,439
conference so the speakers and you know

4220
02:19:56,230 --> 02:19:54,640
stuff like that he was trying to talk

4221
02:19:57,349 --> 02:19:56,240
them into going up to his hotel room

4222
02:19:58,469 --> 02:19:57,359
getting some eeg

4223
02:20:00,550 --> 02:19:58,479
and he was doing one of his

4224
02:20:03,030 --> 02:20:00,560
pre-sentiment experiments

4225
02:20:04,630 --> 02:20:03,040
um which is like i can't remember which

4226
02:20:05,750 --> 02:20:04,640
one it was it was probably the one where

4227
02:20:08,950 --> 02:20:05,760
he like shows you the

4228
02:20:10,710 --> 02:20:08,960
like bunch of pictures you know and he's

4229
02:20:12,790 --> 02:20:10,720
measuring you with eeg

4230
02:20:14,550 --> 02:20:12,800
and some of the pictures are horrific

4231
02:20:15,990 --> 02:20:14,560
like you know you're in a car crash and

4232
02:20:17,429 --> 02:20:16,000
your torso is severed in half

4233
02:20:19,030 --> 02:20:17,439
or whatever probably not that extreme

4234
02:20:20,389 --> 02:20:19,040
but pretty close to that extreme and

4235
02:20:22,230 --> 02:20:20,399
there are these standardized picture

4236
02:20:22,710 --> 02:20:22,240
databases that have basically been rated

4237
02:20:24,469 --> 02:20:22,720
by

4238
02:20:26,870 --> 02:20:24,479
affect you know the amount of emotion

4239
02:20:28,870 --> 02:20:26,880
they elicit and stuff like that

4240
02:20:31,349 --> 02:20:28,880
and what he was measuring was people's

4241
02:20:34,550 --> 02:20:31,359
physiological responses

4242
02:20:35,830 --> 02:20:34,560
to um those images before they were

4243
02:20:37,830 --> 02:20:35,840
shown

4244
02:20:39,429 --> 02:20:37,840
before they were even selected by the

4245
02:20:40,870 --> 02:20:39,439
computer

4246
02:20:43,190 --> 02:20:40,880
okay that's i accept that that's

4247
02:20:46,550 --> 02:20:43,200
probably true um

4248
02:20:48,150 --> 02:20:46,560
and you know i remember i

4249
02:20:49,990 --> 02:20:48,160
forgot about that lost track of it

4250
02:20:52,309 --> 02:20:50,000
whatever i saw him years later

4251
02:20:53,750 --> 02:20:52,319
um and it and it just made me think

4252
02:20:55,349 --> 02:20:53,760
about that experiment you know like i

4253
02:20:56,230 --> 02:20:55,359
hadn't seen him in years last time i saw

4254
02:20:57,750 --> 02:20:56,240
him we were

4255
02:20:59,510 --> 02:20:57,760
sitting next to each other in the main

4256
02:21:00,230 --> 02:20:59,520
ballroom of the science and non-duality

4257
02:21:01,830 --> 02:21:00,240
conference

4258
02:21:03,830 --> 02:21:01,840
talking about what he was doing with his

4259
02:21:05,510 --> 02:21:03,840
hotel room right and so that just

4260
02:21:07,830 --> 02:21:05,520
naturally that memory just popped back

4261
02:21:09,110 --> 02:21:07,840
up to mind that when i saw him again

4262
02:21:11,030 --> 02:21:09,120
and i was like hey how did that ever

4263
02:21:12,070 --> 02:21:11,040
turn out you know did it turn out that

4264
02:21:15,510 --> 02:21:12,080
they were

4265
02:21:18,790 --> 02:21:15,520
you know and he basically said that um

4266
02:21:20,389 --> 02:21:18,800
that he thought his evidence showed that

4267
02:21:22,630 --> 02:21:20,399
people that were in fundamental

4268
02:21:24,950 --> 02:21:22,640
well-being were

4269
02:21:26,309 --> 02:21:24,960
basically more likely to have this

4270
02:21:27,910 --> 02:21:26,319
pre-sentiment effect

4271
02:21:29,830 --> 02:21:27,920
as he called it i think i'm getting that

4272
02:21:31,670 --> 02:21:29,840
word right um

4273
02:21:32,870 --> 02:21:31,680
i think so that's my understanding and

4274
02:21:35,190 --> 02:21:32,880
so

4275
02:21:36,389 --> 02:21:35,200
uh the effect being that they had a

4276
02:21:38,309 --> 02:21:36,399
stronger reaction

4277
02:21:39,510 --> 02:21:38,319
to photographs that if you're right

4278
02:21:40,150 --> 02:21:39,520
haven't even been selected by the

4279
02:21:42,150 --> 02:21:40,160
computer but

4280
02:21:43,510 --> 02:21:42,160
certainly hadn't been shown to the

4281
02:21:45,030 --> 02:21:43,520
subject yet

4282
02:21:46,790 --> 02:21:45,040
um and that's kind of thing you can only

4283
02:21:48,389 --> 02:21:46,800
do with something like eeg

4284
02:21:50,150 --> 02:21:48,399
because it has a very tight time course

4285
02:21:51,990 --> 02:21:50,160
in milliseconds you know they're looking

4286
02:21:53,429 --> 02:21:52,000
at the time courses in milliseconds just

4287
02:21:54,630 --> 02:21:53,439
prior to the thing being with the oil

4288
02:21:56,630 --> 02:21:54,640
and all that

4289
02:21:59,110 --> 02:21:56,640
um and so it's really takes a very

4290
02:22:02,070 --> 02:21:59,120
tricky setup a very precise system

4291
02:22:02,870 --> 02:22:02,080
um all of that it's not easy work to do

4292
02:22:06,070 --> 02:22:02,880
um

4293
02:22:07,429 --> 02:22:06,080
and so but but you know dean is hardcore

4294
02:22:09,030 --> 02:22:07,439
electrical engineer

4295
02:22:10,870 --> 02:22:09,040
psychological experimenting guy with

4296
02:22:12,389 --> 02:22:10,880
decades of experience like if he says

4297
02:22:13,910 --> 02:22:12,399
his experimental apparatus will set it

4298
02:22:16,230 --> 02:22:13,920
properly i'm not going to say

4299
02:22:17,510 --> 02:22:16,240
you know well the geez dean you must not

4300
02:22:19,270 --> 02:22:17,520
have set your gear up right

4301
02:22:21,190 --> 02:22:19,280
i'm going to assume that you know he did

4302
02:22:23,510 --> 02:22:21,200
his job as he

4303
02:22:25,429 --> 02:22:23,520
you know it's the best of his ability

4304
02:22:26,630 --> 02:22:25,439
which i'm sure is more than good enough

4305
02:22:28,630 --> 02:22:26,640
i mean basically what he's saying in

4306
02:22:31,030 --> 02:22:28,640
that is it made people more psychic

4307
02:22:32,309 --> 02:22:31,040
in some sense right and so if if he's

4308
02:22:34,070 --> 02:22:32,319
saying you know

4309
02:22:36,630 --> 02:22:34,080
there's a people in fundamental

4310
02:22:39,830 --> 02:22:36,640
well-being have an increased intuition

4311
02:22:41,670 --> 02:22:39,840
um in this way you know that's a i think

4312
02:22:42,790 --> 02:22:41,680
that's an interesting potential answer

4313
02:22:44,710 --> 02:22:42,800
to your question

4314
02:22:46,070 --> 02:22:44,720
because certainly people who are in

4315
02:22:49,349 --> 02:22:46,080
fundamental well-being

4316
02:22:50,309 --> 02:22:49,359
at a certain degree in depth do feel

4317
02:22:53,590 --> 02:22:50,319
like they have

4318
02:22:55,910 --> 02:22:53,600
a greater intuition or greater intuitive

4319
02:22:57,990 --> 02:22:55,920
um capability now to me that's just a

4320
02:23:01,030 --> 02:22:58,000
subjective untested report

4321
02:23:03,190 --> 02:23:01,040
right and so as a social scientist

4322
02:23:04,790 --> 02:23:03,200
i note it down i know how many people

4323
02:23:05,590 --> 02:23:04,800
say it versus the ones that don't feel

4324
02:23:07,590 --> 02:23:05,600
that way

4325
02:23:09,030 --> 02:23:07,600
you know things like that right but then

4326
02:23:10,870 --> 02:23:09,040
you know that's something that can so i

4327
02:23:13,190 --> 02:23:10,880
have a subjective report on one hand and

4328
02:23:14,710 --> 02:23:13,200
i have something from dean

4329
02:23:16,550 --> 02:23:14,720
granted i didn't really look at the data

4330
02:23:18,469 --> 02:23:16,560
or the actual findings or the

4331
02:23:19,830 --> 02:23:18,479
statistical significance or any of that

4332
02:23:21,429 --> 02:23:19,840
was just like you know

4333
02:23:23,429 --> 02:23:21,439
casual conversation in a hallway or

4334
02:23:25,429 --> 02:23:23,439
something um

4335
02:23:26,550 --> 02:23:25,439
but you know i don't think he just

4336
02:23:28,309 --> 02:23:26,560
talking about stuff that isn't

4337
02:23:31,270 --> 02:23:28,319
statistically significant

4338
02:23:32,950 --> 02:23:31,280
you know knowing him um and so you know

4339
02:23:34,710 --> 02:23:32,960
i think he was giving me the relevant

4340
02:23:36,790 --> 02:23:34,720
aspect the relevant answer from a

4341
02:23:39,030 --> 02:23:36,800
scientific perspective

4342
02:23:40,950 --> 02:23:39,040
not to pick on dean although in good

4343
02:23:43,030 --> 02:23:40,960
ways in this case

4344
02:23:44,950 --> 02:23:43,040
but i remember another time when i first

4345
02:23:46,630 --> 02:23:44,960
visited him at ions

4346
02:23:48,630 --> 02:23:46,640
um he had like he was in like these

4347
02:23:50,309 --> 02:23:48,640
trailers i don't know what the story is

4348
02:23:54,790 --> 02:23:50,319
now i've been there a long time

4349
02:23:57,110 --> 02:23:54,800
um and uh i was just there to you know

4350
02:23:58,550 --> 02:23:57,120
get to know him better right but it just

4351
02:24:00,389 --> 02:23:58,560
so happened that i showed up

4352
02:24:01,910 --> 02:24:00,399
not long after he got his double slit

4353
02:24:03,750 --> 02:24:01,920
experiment thing

4354
02:24:05,110 --> 02:24:03,760
uh and so he had this apparatus he got

4355
02:24:06,389 --> 02:24:05,120
some donor to give him 50 grand or

4356
02:24:07,670 --> 02:24:06,399
something he bought some double slit

4357
02:24:09,670 --> 02:24:07,680
experiment thing

4358
02:24:11,429 --> 02:24:09,680
and so he had it set up and he had it

4359
02:24:14,280 --> 02:24:11,439
programmed and there was actually a lady

4360
02:24:15,590 --> 02:24:14,290
in there who was running trials um

4361
02:24:20,230 --> 02:24:15,600
[Music]

4362
02:24:23,030 --> 02:24:21,510
you know i didn't think too much about

4363
02:24:24,309 --> 02:24:23,040
it and so dean and i were talking about

4364
02:24:25,830 --> 02:24:24,319
this he was doing like chocolate

4365
02:24:27,429 --> 02:24:25,840
intention experiments or something at

4366
02:24:28,870 --> 02:24:27,439
that time and he like gave me this piece

4367
02:24:31,270 --> 02:24:28,880
of chocolate that was infused with the

4368
02:24:32,309 --> 02:24:31,280
intention of love or something and

4369
02:24:34,230 --> 02:24:32,319
you know he gives me the chocolate and

4370
02:24:35,190 --> 02:24:34,240
asking if i feel any different and you

4371
02:24:36,550 --> 02:24:35,200
know stuff like that

4372
02:24:38,469 --> 02:24:36,560
and i love chocolate so i was just

4373
02:24:39,110 --> 02:24:38,479
grateful for the chocolate i was hungry

4374
02:24:41,030 --> 02:24:39,120
but

4375
02:24:42,550 --> 02:24:41,040
ions took a while to get to it longer

4376
02:24:45,910 --> 02:24:42,560
than i thought it would take to try

4377
02:24:47,270 --> 02:24:45,920
something so i was i was looking at the

4378
02:24:49,110 --> 02:24:47,280
chocolate on his desk

4379
02:24:51,030 --> 02:24:49,120
and he was generous to give me some

4380
02:24:52,790 --> 02:24:51,040
right i didn't realize it was special

4381
02:24:54,630 --> 02:24:52,800
experimental chocolate at the time i was

4382
02:24:57,190 --> 02:24:54,640
just like oh god i would really love one

4383
02:24:59,910 --> 02:24:57,200
of those chocolates right

4384
02:25:01,990 --> 02:24:59,920
and so basically this lady goes to leave

4385
02:25:05,110 --> 02:25:02,000
his experimental subject goes to leave

4386
02:25:06,630 --> 02:25:05,120
and um and and dina told me all about

4387
02:25:08,230 --> 02:25:06,640
the experiment and experimental setup

4388
02:25:09,830 --> 02:25:08,240
and why he was doing it and all sounded

4389
02:25:12,150 --> 02:25:09,840
kind of interesting and i was like well

4390
02:25:14,389 --> 02:25:12,160
before she leaves let's look at her data

4391
02:25:15,990 --> 02:25:14,399
you know and so we go in the other room

4392
02:25:19,030 --> 02:25:16,000
and it's got like these bar

4393
02:25:22,950 --> 02:25:19,040
graphs sort of on the screen and

4394
02:25:24,230 --> 02:25:22,960
um he starts walking her through each of

4395
02:25:25,590 --> 02:25:24,240
he turns out each one of the bar graphs

4396
02:25:26,710 --> 02:25:25,600
is like a trial or something so it's

4397
02:25:27,110 --> 02:25:26,720
walking her through the trial and he's

4398
02:25:28,230 --> 02:25:27,120
like

4399
02:25:29,670 --> 02:25:28,240
what did you do on this one do you

4400
02:25:30,870 --> 02:25:29,680
remember what you did on this one do you

4401
02:25:31,990 --> 02:25:30,880
remember what you did on this one

4402
02:25:34,070 --> 02:25:32,000
did you remember what you did on this

4403
02:25:34,710 --> 02:25:34,080
one so on and so forth and all of them

4404
02:25:36,150 --> 02:25:34,720
were like

4405
02:25:37,670 --> 02:25:36,160
i don't know kind of middle of the road

4406
02:25:39,590 --> 02:25:37,680
bars and then there was this one bar

4407
02:25:43,830 --> 02:25:39,600
that was like kind of off the charts

4408
02:25:45,190 --> 02:25:43,840
right um and she basically

4409
02:25:46,790 --> 02:25:45,200
you know he gets to that when he's like

4410
02:25:49,190 --> 02:25:46,800
do you remember what you did at this one

4411
02:25:51,190 --> 02:25:49,200
and she just sort of looked at him

4412
02:25:52,870 --> 02:25:51,200
and then she sort of looked over at me

4413
02:25:53,270 --> 02:25:52,880
and the other person from our lab that

4414
02:25:56,550 --> 02:25:53,280
was

4415
02:25:58,070 --> 02:25:56,560
visiting with me and you could tell that

4416
02:26:01,110 --> 02:25:58,080
she didn't want to say

4417
02:26:02,710 --> 02:26:01,120
you know and so she tried to give like

4418
02:26:06,230 --> 02:26:02,720
some sort of half-assed

4419
02:26:08,150 --> 02:26:06,240
sort of response to it and i'm like well

4420
02:26:09,990 --> 02:26:08,160
i'm not gonna you know settle for that

4421
02:26:11,270 --> 02:26:10,000
like you know you were really precise on

4422
02:26:12,550 --> 02:26:11,280
the other ones like you know what did

4423
02:26:14,230 --> 02:26:12,560
you do on this one and she's like it

4424
02:26:15,110 --> 02:26:14,240
says she thinks that she pauses for a

4425
02:26:16,630 --> 02:26:15,120
while

4426
02:26:20,469 --> 02:26:16,640
and she looks at us some more and she

4427
02:26:23,910 --> 02:26:20,479
thinks about it and she says well

4428
02:26:28,469 --> 02:26:23,920
there's this thing i can do

4429
02:26:30,389 --> 02:26:28,479
where i can kind of make myself go away

4430
02:26:31,830 --> 02:26:30,399
you know she describes like basically

4431
02:26:35,270 --> 02:26:31,840
being able to put herself into this

4432
02:26:37,030 --> 02:26:35,280
temporary non-symbolic experience

4433
02:26:39,030 --> 02:26:37,040
and she's like that's what i was doing

4434
02:26:41,190 --> 02:26:39,040
when i did that bar

4435
02:26:42,150 --> 02:26:41,200
um i thought i thought that's very

4436
02:26:44,550 --> 02:26:42,160
interesting and i had

4437
02:26:46,230 --> 02:26:44,560
i had um had dinner with bob and brenda

4438
02:26:47,830 --> 02:26:46,240
don of pear lab

4439
02:26:49,270 --> 02:26:47,840
after one of these conferences that we

4440
02:26:52,389 --> 02:26:49,280
were all at one time

4441
02:26:55,110 --> 02:26:52,399
uh back when bob was still alive and um

4442
02:26:56,950 --> 02:26:55,120
it was not long after bob had retired

4443
02:26:58,309 --> 02:26:56,960
uh and i didn't know anything i didn't

4444
02:26:59,670 --> 02:26:58,319
know much about him you know

4445
02:27:01,910 --> 02:26:59,680
and so they were telling me about what

4446
02:27:03,590 --> 02:27:01,920
they were doing uh and so i'm like well

4447
02:27:04,469 --> 02:27:03,600
geez you're at the end of like 25 years

4448
02:27:06,550 --> 02:27:04,479
of this research

4449
02:27:07,990 --> 02:27:06,560
you know so i'm going to ask you the

4450
02:27:09,750 --> 02:27:08,000
obvious question

4451
02:27:11,349 --> 02:27:09,760
what do you think of what you came up

4452
02:27:13,590 --> 02:27:11,359
with you know

4453
02:27:14,870 --> 02:27:13,600
and bob basically gave me the spiel

4454
02:27:15,510 --> 02:27:14,880
about how he kind of felt like they'd

4455
02:27:17,510 --> 02:27:15,520
failed

4456
02:27:18,950 --> 02:27:17,520
like how he hadn't even really convinced

4457
02:27:21,270 --> 02:27:18,960
himself

4458
02:27:23,110 --> 02:27:21,280
that there was an effect in the data

4459
02:27:23,910 --> 02:27:23,120
that he had to use all this you know

4460
02:27:25,910 --> 02:27:23,920
stochastic

4461
02:27:27,349 --> 02:27:25,920
resonance numbering and all that he's

4462
02:27:30,230 --> 02:27:27,359
like you know it seems to me

4463
02:27:32,469 --> 02:27:30,240
like i'm i could just as easily be

4464
02:27:34,150 --> 02:27:32,479
pulling out a ghost in the machine

4465
02:27:35,510 --> 02:27:34,160
uh that doesn't mean anything is pulling

4466
02:27:36,710 --> 02:27:35,520
out a real signal from this data i

4467
02:27:38,309 --> 02:27:36,720
thought yeah it left me with a lot of

4468
02:27:40,550 --> 02:27:38,319
respect for the guy i mean who does who

4469
02:27:43,190 --> 02:27:40,560
spends 25 years of their life

4470
02:27:44,070 --> 02:27:43,200
and you know admits to that at the end

4471
02:27:46,230 --> 02:27:44,080
of it right

4472
02:27:47,670 --> 02:27:46,240
especially somebody is so brilliant as

4473
02:27:50,230 --> 02:27:47,680
he clearly was

4474
02:27:52,710 --> 02:27:50,240
um and that's how he chose to just throw

4475
02:27:55,590 --> 02:27:52,720
25 the last 25 years of his career

4476
02:27:57,270 --> 02:27:55,600
into right um and in some sense from

4477
02:27:59,349 --> 02:27:57,280
that answer kind of a way

4478
02:28:00,790 --> 02:27:59,359
a little bit you know you would think

4479
02:28:02,389 --> 02:28:00,800
considering all the other stuff he could

4480
02:28:05,190 --> 02:28:02,399
have been inventing or doing or whatever

4481
02:28:07,670 --> 02:28:05,200
with the brilliant physics mind like his

4482
02:28:09,510 --> 02:28:07,680
um and so he gets up and he goes to the

4483
02:28:10,230 --> 02:28:09,520
bathroom and brenda and i are sitting

4484
02:28:15,270 --> 02:28:10,240
there

4485
02:28:16,550 --> 02:28:15,280
and um and and i say you know

4486
02:28:18,710 --> 02:28:16,560
what else should i know about this

4487
02:28:21,750 --> 02:28:18,720
brenda that i don't know and he and she

4488
02:28:22,950 --> 02:28:21,760
basically goes on to say that uh and i

4489
02:28:25,190 --> 02:28:22,960
don't want to be too i want to be

4490
02:28:26,630 --> 02:28:25,200
careful here and respectful of the sort

4491
02:28:28,230 --> 02:28:26,640
of what might have been meant to be more

4492
02:28:29,510 --> 02:28:28,240
confidential or whatever so i'll really

4493
02:28:31,670 --> 02:28:29,520
abstract it

4494
02:28:33,429 --> 02:28:31,680
um but the long and the short of it was

4495
02:28:35,429 --> 02:28:33,439
that she basically felt the same way as

4496
02:28:38,550 --> 02:28:35,439
that lady in petaluma

4497
02:28:41,670 --> 02:28:38,560
um and so this was around 2000 somewhere

4498
02:28:45,349 --> 02:28:41,680
2004 2005 2006 i remember

4499
02:28:48,950 --> 02:28:45,359
probably around 2006 um and

4500
02:28:49,429 --> 02:28:48,960
um and brenda basically said you know it

4501
02:28:53,510 --> 02:28:49,439
seems

4502
02:28:55,190 --> 02:28:53,520
allow us to collect any psychological

4503
02:28:55,750 --> 02:28:55,200
data she was a psychologist she's like

4504
02:28:59,270 --> 02:28:55,760
bob

4505
02:29:00,870 --> 02:28:59,280
won't allow us to collect any subjective

4506
02:29:02,710 --> 02:29:00,880
information from subjects

4507
02:29:04,150 --> 02:29:02,720
and really work with it in a meaningful

4508
02:29:05,990 --> 02:29:04,160
way um

4509
02:29:07,670 --> 02:29:06,000
you know so she's like i've only got my

4510
02:29:07,990 --> 02:29:07,680
anecdotal impressions from having been

4511
02:29:10,469 --> 02:29:08,000
the lab

4512
02:29:12,309 --> 02:29:10,479
manager for 20 years at this time but

4513
02:29:13,750 --> 02:29:12,319
she's like my anecdotal impressions are

4514
02:29:15,590 --> 02:29:13,760
that there's a small number of people

4515
02:29:16,469 --> 02:29:15,600
that are producing an outsize effect on

4516
02:29:17,830 --> 02:29:16,479
this data

4517
02:29:19,670 --> 02:29:17,840
and that the thing that they all seem to

4518
02:29:21,830 --> 02:29:19,680
have in common is that they all

4519
02:29:23,830 --> 02:29:21,840
basically report you know the ability to

4520
02:29:26,790 --> 02:29:23,840
have sort of this mystical

4521
02:29:28,550 --> 02:29:26,800
type of this non-symbolic type of of

4522
02:29:30,150 --> 02:29:28,560
experience she called it she had a

4523
02:29:32,870 --> 02:29:30,160
she had a way that she phrased it where

4524
02:29:35,030 --> 02:29:32,880
she said they would describe a merger or

4525
02:29:37,030 --> 02:29:35,040
a union with the apparatus

4526
02:29:39,429 --> 02:29:37,040
to her you know a dissolution of their

4527
02:29:40,870 --> 02:29:39,439
self boundaries and a merger or union of

4528
02:29:43,830 --> 02:29:40,880
the apparatus

4529
02:29:44,550 --> 02:29:43,840
um and so you know it's i mean i you

4530
02:29:46,870 --> 02:29:44,560
know as a

4531
02:29:48,070 --> 02:29:46,880
as a researcher these sorts of anecdotal

4532
02:29:51,030 --> 02:29:48,080
edge

4533
02:29:51,590 --> 02:29:51,040
things um you know i don't think that

4534
02:29:54,070 --> 02:29:51,600
you can

4535
02:29:55,190 --> 02:29:54,080
you have to you have to take them into

4536
02:29:58,870 --> 02:29:55,200
account

4537
02:30:01,349 --> 02:29:58,880
uh for sure you know i don't know if

4538
02:30:03,030 --> 02:30:01,359
10 years after that or whatever deepak

4539
02:30:04,070 --> 02:30:03,040
chopra pitching me that program if i

4540
02:30:07,030 --> 02:30:04,080
hadn't you know

4541
02:30:07,429 --> 02:30:07,040
talked to brenda at that lunch and had

4542
02:30:10,870 --> 02:30:07,439
the

4543
02:30:12,389 --> 02:30:10,880
where he took guys double split thing

4544
02:30:14,070 --> 02:30:12,399
and heard that lady's account i don't

4545
02:30:15,830 --> 02:30:14,080
know what i would have said

4546
02:30:17,590 --> 02:30:15,840
to him about that program right but you

4547
02:30:18,630 --> 02:30:17,600
know you accumulate these little data

4548
02:30:21,270 --> 02:30:18,640
points

4549
02:30:23,030 --> 02:30:21,280
and they're not real per se you know

4550
02:30:24,309 --> 02:30:23,040
they're not sort of rigorously sussed

4551
02:30:27,750 --> 02:30:24,319
out with any sort of

4552
02:30:30,830 --> 02:30:27,760
methodological rigor

4553
02:30:32,630 --> 02:30:30,840
but you know they're interesting curious

4554
02:30:34,150 --> 02:30:32,640
anecdotes um

4555
02:30:36,630 --> 02:30:34,160
and they suggest that you shouldn't

4556
02:30:37,270 --> 02:30:36,640
exclude possibilities that you might

4557
02:30:38,790 --> 02:30:37,280
otherwise

4558
02:30:40,230 --> 02:30:38,800
you know exclude if you hadn't heard

4559
02:30:41,429 --> 02:30:40,240
them or just not have ever thought of as

4560
02:30:43,270 --> 02:30:41,439
possibilities if you hadn't

4561
02:30:44,870 --> 02:30:43,280
heard them and so so you know i mean

4562
02:30:48,070 --> 02:30:44,880
it's it's for me it's a collection of a

4563
02:30:49,750 --> 02:30:48,080
lot of this anecdotal type of stuff

4564
02:30:54,150 --> 02:30:49,760
off-the-cuff conversations with people

4565
02:30:58,469 --> 02:30:56,389
but i don't i i can't feel as a

4566
02:31:02,070 --> 02:30:58,479
scientist like i have

4567
02:31:02,950 --> 02:31:02,080
looked rigorously at the data enough to

4568
02:31:05,270 --> 02:31:02,960
really

4569
02:31:06,550 --> 02:31:05,280
feel like i should be having some sort

4570
02:31:08,070 --> 02:31:06,560
of opinion that other people should

4571
02:31:10,230 --> 02:31:08,080
listen to

4572
02:31:12,230 --> 02:31:10,240
you know in the same sense that like i

4573
02:31:14,150 --> 02:31:12,240
don't know if pim goes out and starts

4574
02:31:17,270 --> 02:31:14,160
talking about non-symbolic experience

4575
02:31:18,550 --> 02:31:17,280
after you know six conversations over 15

4576
02:31:20,469 --> 02:31:18,560
years or something

4577
02:31:21,830 --> 02:31:20,479
i mean like why should he do that he

4578
02:31:23,590 --> 02:31:21,840
doesn't know anything about it by

4579
02:31:24,710 --> 02:31:23,600
comparison right i mean i kind of have

4580
02:31:28,389 --> 02:31:24,720
that same thing with his

4581
02:31:29,270 --> 02:31:28,399
work um you know it goes in there

4582
02:31:31,830 --> 02:31:29,280
somewhere

4583
02:31:32,790 --> 02:31:31,840
right but but to really answer your

4584
02:31:34,950 --> 02:31:32,800
question i think

4585
02:31:36,550 --> 02:31:34,960
you know i would have to i mean these

4586
02:31:37,670 --> 02:31:36,560
are my impressions you asked me the last

4587
02:31:39,270 --> 02:31:37,680
question was the impression but to

4588
02:31:41,270 --> 02:31:39,280
answer your former question

4589
02:31:42,550 --> 02:31:41,280
i would have to i think you know any

4590
02:31:44,150 --> 02:31:42,560
responsible

4591
02:31:46,870 --> 02:31:44,160
person that has the skills to look at

4592
02:31:49,830 --> 02:31:46,880
the data would have to really invest

4593
02:31:51,830 --> 02:31:49,840
time you know to really dig into the

4594
02:31:53,349 --> 02:31:51,840
data today into the back stories behind

4595
02:31:54,630 --> 02:31:53,359
the data because there's a file drawer

4596
02:31:56,150 --> 02:31:54,640
data is always a lot more interesting

4597
02:31:57,510 --> 02:31:56,160
than the data's the published

4598
02:31:58,950 --> 02:31:57,520
you know like the stuff with brenda

4599
02:32:00,230 --> 02:31:58,960
that's just never going to be published

4600
02:32:02,790 --> 02:32:00,240
anywhere probably

4601
02:32:04,870 --> 02:32:02,800
right um and so it's it's those file

4602
02:32:06,630 --> 02:32:04,880
drawer things that add the color

4603
02:32:08,150 --> 02:32:06,640
that really help you to get the story of

4604
02:32:09,030 --> 02:32:08,160
the data that lots of times you can't

4605
02:32:10,469 --> 02:32:09,040
get

4606
02:32:11,670 --> 02:32:10,479
uh from just looking at it publicly

4607
02:32:13,910 --> 02:32:11,680
you'd have to i mean you'd have to

4608
02:32:16,389 --> 02:32:13,920
invest a crap ton of time

4609
02:32:18,630 --> 02:32:16,399
um for me to you know really have a

4610
02:32:19,830 --> 02:32:18,640
legit opinion on it

4611
02:32:21,590 --> 02:32:19,840
well jeffrey i'll tell you what we've

4612
02:32:22,710 --> 02:32:21,600
been at it for almost three hours you're

4613
02:32:24,389 --> 02:32:22,720
fantastic i

4614
02:32:25,910 --> 02:32:24,399
appreciate i think this is a an

4615
02:32:28,150 --> 02:32:25,920
interview that will

4616
02:32:29,270 --> 02:32:28,160
reverberate with me and future

4617
02:32:33,349 --> 02:32:29,280
interviews for

4618
02:32:35,590 --> 02:32:33,359
quite some time to come i just think uh

4619
02:32:37,349 --> 02:32:35,600
you're really really an important figure

4620
02:32:39,990 --> 02:32:37,359
in this larger

4621
02:32:41,830 --> 02:32:40,000
issue of our question of consciousness

4622
02:32:44,070 --> 02:32:41,840
and all that so

4623
02:32:45,590 --> 02:32:44,080
i really appreciate you taking so much

4624
02:32:48,550 --> 02:32:45,600
time and talking today

4625
02:32:50,469 --> 02:32:48,560
tell folks how they would keep track of

4626
02:32:52,630 --> 02:32:50,479
what's going on and if they want to give

4627
02:32:54,150 --> 02:32:52,640
the finders course a run

4628
02:32:56,150 --> 02:32:54,160
and they should pick up the book because

4629
02:32:59,670 --> 02:32:56,160
the book is outstanding as well

4630
02:33:03,030 --> 02:32:59,680
and just very very highly regarded but

4631
02:33:05,750 --> 02:33:03,040
tell people how they find all this stuff

4632
02:33:06,870 --> 02:33:05,760
finders thanks these of course might

4633
02:33:09,830 --> 02:33:06,880
change you never know

4634
02:33:12,790 --> 02:33:09,840
but the lab uh the center's research has

4635
02:33:14,790 --> 02:33:12,800
been at non-symbolic.org forever

4636
02:33:17,710 --> 02:33:14,800
and so you can always sort of catch up

4637
02:33:21,469 --> 02:33:17,720
with that as a central hub

4638
02:33:22,950 --> 02:33:21,479
finderscourse.com there's 45days.one

4639
02:33:24,070 --> 02:33:22,960
45days.1

4640
02:33:25,510 --> 02:33:24,080
are the two experiments that are

4641
02:33:26,950 --> 02:33:25,520
currently running who knows what will be

4642
02:33:27,910 --> 02:33:26,960
true by the time someone watches this

4643
02:33:30,630 --> 02:33:27,920
video

4644
02:33:32,230 --> 02:33:30,640
um there's the book of course the

4645
02:33:33,910 --> 02:33:32,240
finders

4646
02:33:35,429 --> 02:33:33,920
as you mentioned which is more or less

4647
02:33:37,830 --> 02:33:35,439
available everywhere

4648
02:33:39,270 --> 02:33:37,840
um that's about it you know dr jeffrey

4649
02:33:41,750 --> 02:33:39,280
martin is my personal website that

4650
02:33:43,349 --> 02:33:41,760
there's no reason to visit

4651
02:33:45,510 --> 02:33:43,359
oh no there's a lot of great stuff there

4652
02:33:47,590 --> 02:33:45,520
do visit that and you'll see

4653
02:33:48,950 --> 02:33:47,600
a good summary of all the books and all

4654
02:33:51,590 --> 02:33:48,960
the other stuff

4655
02:33:52,630 --> 02:33:51,600
well jeffrey it's been great having you

4656
02:33:54,950 --> 02:33:52,640
on and uh

4657
02:33:55,830 --> 02:33:54,960
so fun so fun we just jump right in it

4658
02:33:58,790 --> 02:33:55,840
is i love

4659
02:34:00,309 --> 02:33:58,800
you know people love our interviews like

4660
02:34:01,750 --> 02:34:00,319
i said at the beginning of this it's

4661
02:34:03,830 --> 02:34:01,760
like one of the three

4662
02:34:05,670 --> 02:34:03,840
all these that do zillions of interviews

4663
02:34:06,469 --> 02:34:05,680
and like there's only three that seem to

4664
02:34:08,150 --> 02:34:06,479
ever be mentioned

4665
02:34:09,910 --> 02:34:08,160
and you're one you're one of those three

4666
02:34:12,150 --> 02:34:09,920
and that's amazing so well

4667
02:34:13,110 --> 02:34:12,160
you have this personality i don't know

4668
02:34:14,710 --> 02:34:13,120
what it is but there's

4669
02:34:16,309 --> 02:34:14,720
it's not me right because i'm in all of

4670
02:34:18,710 --> 02:34:16,319
them so they'd be mentioning

4671
02:34:20,309 --> 02:34:18,720
all of them for me it's got to be

4672
02:34:21,030 --> 02:34:20,319
something related to you and how you do

4673
02:34:23,030 --> 02:34:21,040
this

4674
02:34:24,309 --> 02:34:23,040
which is great i'm so grateful for it

4675
02:34:25,910 --> 02:34:24,319
because the interaction

4676
02:34:27,670 --> 02:34:25,920
gets people interested and they're

4677
02:34:30,790 --> 02:34:27,680
willing to watch stuff about this then

4678
02:34:32,230 --> 02:34:30,800
that's extraordinarily helpful

4679
02:34:33,990 --> 02:34:32,240
thanks for that thanks for what you're

4680
02:34:37,110 --> 02:34:34,000
doing you know no

4681
02:34:40,309 --> 02:34:37,120
okay well mutually

4682
02:34:42,550 --> 02:34:40,319
take care thanks again to jeffrey martin

4683
02:34:43,030 --> 02:34:42,560
for joining me today on skeptico the one

4684
02:34:44,870 --> 02:34:43,040
question

4685
02:34:47,270 --> 02:34:44,880
i would tee up from this interview has

4686
02:34:50,550 --> 02:34:47,280
to do with this idea about the

4687
02:34:51,670 --> 02:34:50,560
cultural shift from an egocentric

4688
02:34:55,030 --> 02:34:51,680
culture to a

4689
02:34:57,750 --> 02:34:55,040
fundamental well-being culture

4690
02:34:58,950 --> 02:34:57,760
what do you think about the prospects

4691
02:35:02,550 --> 02:34:58,960
for

4692
02:35:04,070 --> 02:35:02,560
that kind of change boy that gets really

4693
02:35:06,389 --> 02:35:04,080
deep really quick

4694
02:35:07,990 --> 02:35:06,399
so let me know your thoughts hop on over

4695
02:35:10,469 --> 02:35:08,000
to the skeptico forum

4696
02:35:11,110 --> 02:35:10,479
if you'd like to connect with and

4697
02:35:12,870 --> 02:35:11,120
exchange

4698
02:35:14,469 --> 02:35:12,880
ideas with other people who listen to

4699
02:35:16,550 --> 02:35:14,479
this show including me

4700
02:35:18,230 --> 02:35:16,560
that's available to you you can also go

4701
02:35:19,349 --> 02:35:18,240
to the skeptical website where you can

4702
02:35:22,870 --> 02:35:19,359
download

4703
02:35:25,349 --> 02:35:22,880
all these previous episodes of skeptico

4704
02:35:26,230 --> 02:35:25,359
for free that's going to do it for this

4705
02:35:28,870 --> 02:35:26,240
episode

4706
02:35:30,230 --> 02:35:28,880
i do have some pretty good ones i think

4707
02:35:32,950 --> 02:35:30,240
coming up

4708
02:35:33,590 --> 02:35:32,960
stay with me for all of that until next

4709
02:35:40,130 --> 02:35:33,600
time